Couple of criticisms

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What kind of german opposition are you facing? And are support units being committed to battle? How does the supply picture look (drawn in and expended). Where is your railhead? How many trucks are you loosing? I now understand what you are saying but it doesnt really say anything without additional information.....

Panzer divisions and defence in depth, nope but sure who cares the way Im going through the Germans it aint important. The additional imformation is largely irrevelant Im 18 hexs from HQ. I have 30% supply 50% fuel and 100% ammo and my railhead is about 6 hexes away. I have plenty of combat numbers

You just cant get your head round this HQ's are a redundant feature their effect on the game is so marginal they are just clutter. The only gravity is the huge number of German units to plough through.

This game need some serious mechanics inserted.

Well you want HQ's for support units at least since you can't attach them to russian divisions directly.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What kind of german opposition are you facing? And are support units being committed to battle? How does the supply picture look (drawn in and expended). Where is your railhead? How many trucks are you loosing? I now understand what you are saying but it doesnt really say anything without additional information.....

Panzer divisions and defence in depth, nope but sure who cares the way Im going through the Germans it aint important. The additional imformation is largely irrevelant Im 18 hexs from HQ. I have 30% supply 50% fuel and 100% ammo and my railhead is about 6 hexes away. I have plenty of combat numbers

You just cant get your head round this HQ's are a redundant feature their effect on the game is so marginal they are just clutter. The only gravity is the huge number of German units to plough through.

This game need some serious mechanics inserted.

Well you want HQ's for support units at least since you can't attach them to russian divisions directly.

Well you want HQ's for support units at least since you can't attach them to russian divisions directly.

Yup and I love the support unit concept, revolutionary stuff and a feature that should always looked to be enhanced the further we go down the line but the nub of the problem is all that time sorting out your units, transfering thing around is really unimportant in game HQ's just dont function as an administravive and supply hub for units. Divisions are operating 100's of miles from their HQ without consequence. Units are able to move 100's of miles a turn without consequence. You can go through the game without support units. If the enemy breakthroughs all you need to do is move units in his path from 100's of miles away.

[cookie monster]

While all of what you say may be true, I find sloppy play versus the AI pointless.

All of the micromanagement issues are there for tight games/battles.

I think sloppy play in a PBEM would lead to unnecessary casualties and the higher likelihood of a defeat/draw.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Smirfy




Panzer divisions and defence in depth, nope but sure who cares the way Im going through the Germans it aint important. The additional imformation is largely irrevelant Im 18 hexs from HQ. I have 30% supply 50% fuel and 100% ammo and my railhead is about 6 hexes away. I have plenty of combat numbers

You just cant get your head round this HQ's are a redundant feature their effect on the game is so marginal they are just clutter. The only gravity is the huge number of German units to plough through.

This game need some serious mechanics inserted.

Well you want HQ's for support units at least since you can't attach them to russian divisions directly.

Well you want HQ's for support units at least since you can't attach them to russian divisions directly.

Yup and I love the support unit concept, revolutionary stuff and a feature that should always looked to be enhanced the further we go down the line but the nub of the problem is all that time sorting out your units, transfering thing around is really unimportant in game HQ's just dont function as an administravive and supply hub for units. Divisions are operating 100's of miles from their HQ without consequence. Units are able to move 100's of miles a turn without consequence. You can go through the game without support units. If the enemy breakthroughs all you need to do is move units in his path from 100's of miles away.

Very weird i don't see that in any of my games. I see myself losing CV when my boys are over fatigued and or under supplied. That's with the boys being in range of an HQ. I've never had my units operate far away from my HQ's so i am not sure how much differently it works.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

While all of what you say may be true, I find sloppy play versus the AI pointless.

All of the micromanagement issues are there for tight games/battles.

I think sloppy play in a PBEM would lead to unnecessary casualties and the higher likelihood of a defeat/draw.

The ability to set up a checker board defence because there is zero command and control mechanics I believe effects PBEM games as well, the abilty to move units hundred of miles without penalty also effects PBEM games I imagine.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

While all of what you say may be true, I find sloppy play versus the AI pointless.

All of the micromanagement issues are there for tight games/battles.

I think sloppy play in a PBEM would lead to unnecessary casualties and the higher likelihood of a defeat/draw.

The ability to set up a checker board defence because there is zero command and control mechanics I believe effects PBEM games as well, the abilty to move units hundred of miles without penalty also effects PBEM games I imagine.

Very weird i don't see that in any of my games. I see myself losing CV when my boys are over fatigued and or under supplied. That's with the boys being in range of an HQ. I've never had my units operate far away from my HQ's so i am not sure how much differently it works.

Trust me it has little or know effect provided you keep repairing railroads

[karonagames]

Hi Smirfy,

Were you one of the guys that posted a screen shot of a Soviet capture of Berlin in 1943? If so what date did you capture Berlin, and what date did you get the decisive victory?

Have you seen any difference when playing at Challenging and/or Hard level?

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Hi Smirfy,

Were you one of the guys that posted a screen shot of a Soviet capture of Berlin in 1943? If so what date did you capture Berlin, and what date did you get the decisive victory?

Have you seen any difference when playing at Challenging and/or Hard level?

Nope and I'm trying to stay away from the Russian/German arguement thing. The challenge is not that important for me right now the mechanics are more important. I'm not trying to be cheeky but if you increase the challenge will the AI spam even more foot cavalry infront of you. Perhaps it is a design decision not to worry about distance from HQ and effective command and control because it is felt the AI would not be able to cope? Whatever the case is it leads to an unbelievable enviroment especially being able to use infantry like 48 pz korps everytime there is a breakthrough quite apart from what are HQ's actually there for problem.

In War Between States C+C was such an important feature I'm sort of at a loss that it ended up so loose in this game especially since there are so many eastern front experts and accomplished gamers on board. So many units with no parameters ends up a boring counter shove. Like I said I have faith that you guys will try some stuff to improve things.

[wodin]

Sometimes I think games try to do to much. I imagine a game this size, to do it justice, would require military grade software.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Sometimes I think games try to do to much. I imagine a game this size, to do it justice, would require military grade software.

Yup its hard to cover all the bases and think of everything but things like having units other than fronts/army groups attached to OKH and Stavka at a real low combat value to simulate they are basically training,resting and all over the place in billets is simple to implement.

[karonagames]

I'm sort of at a loss that it ended up so loose in this game especially since there are so many eastern front experts and accomplished gamers on board. So many units with no parameters ends up a boring counter shove. Like I said I have faith that you guys will try some stuff to improve things.

All I can say is that over the 225 turn campaign and roughly a 120hex front line, if poor C&C reduces units MPs by 3 per unit, then this will result in 120 less attacks and/or potentially 120 less hexes occupied, and therefore make it harder to achieve the rate of advance necessary to obtain the Turn225 objectives.

The greatest feature of this game is the way it self balances. In the short term you may not see any problems with not trying to maintain C&C but in the long term you will.

[Smirfy]

My summer offensive went from Kiev to Lvov in 43 and knocked Roumania out of the war. There is obviously a problem that won't self balance.

[karonagames]

AS noted previously, Berlin is being captured in 1943 against Normal AI. It has been recommended that SU players should set the AI to challenging or hard.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

AS noted previously, Berlin is being captured in 1943 against Normal AI. It has been recommended that SU players should set the AI to challenging or hard.

I think we are going round in circles it is not the challenge it is the mechanics, it is how the game is operating, it is the number of redundant features.

[39battalion]

This is a depressing thread.

If Smirfy is correct he deserves a medal for finding a fatal flaw.

However if he is correct it essentially means the game is broken for the Soviet player, at least against the AI.

Very sad for a game that was receiving so many early accolades.

[jomni]

The game is still fun despite this flaw if it is really a flaw.

[Ketza]

I noticed a very big increase in the combat resiliency or Soviet units in my PBEM game vrs my AI games. I assumed that this came from the human factor keeping things more organized. I always try and keep my guys within command range. It never occurred to me to run things willy nilly all over the map.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


This is a depressing thread.

If Smirfy is correct he deserves a medal for finding a fatal flaw.

However if he is correct it essentially means the game is broken for the Soviet player, at least against the AI.

Very sad for a game that was receiving so many early accolades.

Humm, I haven't seen anyone playing PBEM (me included) complaining. Au contraire, we all are very happy [:)]

So someone captured Berlin in 1943 vs the AI? [8|] So? I've been playing vs WitP AI since 2004. A game MUCH more complex than this one. I had a lot of fun. The recipe? Simply DO NOT SAVAGE THE AI, play historically, it's just easy [:)] If you want to try dirty little tricks, find a human being. You will break the AI = game over = you will be unhappy [8D]

[madgamer2]

[/quote]

Humm, I haven't seen anyone playing PBEM (me included) complaining. Au contraire, we all are very happy [:)]

So someone captured Berlin in 1943 vs the AI? [8|] So? I've been playing vs WitP AI since 2004. A game MUCH more complex than this one. I had a lot of fun. The recipe? Simply DO NOT SAVAGE THE AI, play historically, it's just easy [:)] If you want to try dirty little tricks, find a human being. You will break the AI = game over = you will be unhappy [8D]
[/quote]

I just have a hard time believing Matrix would release a game with this kind of error in C & C. I am basically checking the forum each day, reading the manual very slowly,keeping the game patched. When i finish the manual I will play the tutorial several times and the road to Leningrad several times and play with the various setup menu's and by that time I am hoping the game will have most things fixed but if this thread is CORRECT it kind of takes the wind out of my sails. I mean for the Russians to win with just rail supply and no C & C is just to horiable to contemplate. Maybe some of the players out there should try what he is doing to see if it can be done. Might be hard as we do not know if he made radical changes in the pre game settings.

Madgamer2

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
The ability to set up a checker board defence because there is zero command and control mechanics I believe effects PBEM games as well, the abilty to move units hundred of miles without penalty also effects PBEM games I imagine.

How do you mean "without penalty"? Sometimes you can visibly see a unit losing CV value on the counter just by moving.

Hundered of miles? Of course. The game simulates one week turns.