This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!
city bombing only at night sounds like a reasonable hr. With manpower only targetted, the industry would get damaged by fires (if fires actually work in AE which I haven´t seen evidence for yet).
And the last ime this topic reared its head there was documented evidence introduced of night bombing of islands at 1000+ mile ranges by the Japanese (Wake maybe?) Dead reckoning is pretty good over water, an island's borders can be seen from altitude against sea even with minor moonlight, and a lot of islands were small enough that the airfield could be IDed.
So what about night bombing of islands? Do we over-complicate a working system that much again?
Why do players who think night-bombing is overpowered or ahistorical DO IT, then come here to complain about it?
Just Say No. Be happy.
I don´t do it because I think it´s overpowered. To be more precise, I didn´t do it until the Japanese decided to fly night attacks which I retaliated with my 4E which lead the Japanese to stop and me too. I also didn´t do night bombing in WITP.
Night Bombing from my point of view is clearly overpowered. My opponent and i have more or less the agreement to only do very very limited strikes.
As an example approximative a month ago my opponent sent more than 200 fighters to bases in northern Australia. As i have Tennant Creek and Daly Waters at lvl 9 with around 500 2E and 4E based there it is a quite futile attempt.
When i do airfield attacks during the day the problem with the current radar is that you have almost no chance to hit planes on the ground so i tried a multi night attack on 4 bases with around 50 - 60 4E each. The result for the Japanese was devastating and i killed around 60 planes in that turn.
And if there a no night fighters on defense you get not a lot of damaged 4E and few operational losses. So in theory the perfect way to attack the Japanese.
I have to admit i was a little ashamed after that at is just too ridiculous to do night attacks with no way to stop them and unbelievable low op losses. So for me i stopped them completely and even if my Japanese opponent would use them i would by no way use them on airfield attack any more. Completely kills any challenge out of the game.
As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.
I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.
That result does not make my statement true. I said nothing about and losses expected. I wonder if it had to do with using LRCAP? I don't remember seeing that problem using CAP( I have not played any turns as Japan for weeks. )
Maybe one my opponets, Puhis, can shed some light on his losses against my bombers? With FOW I don't want to make any claims of his losses.
Yes, I did fly night LRCAP with Nicks and Tojos. I had to stop it, because A2A losses were heavy. I think one night I lost 4 or 5 Nicks. Can't remember Tojo losses. I does seem that LRCAP at night is bad idea...
I seem to disagree with the posters here..I feel night bombing is just about right, if not dummied down a tad for certain time frames.
The Brits were the masters of night bombing after probably 1941, had been at it a while and used "pathfinder" units to mark the target which effectively let the main formation find it.
Since they were not going for pinpoint targetting, an airfield would of course be much easier to hit, than say a single building, or even factory complex.
The night bombing was probably cut down from the original WITP by maybe 50% in effectiveness, and if we further castrate it, will no longer be an option for either player, (even the units which historically mastered the concept?).
Well, artillery has been "castrated", so why not night bombing too?
There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.
Yes, I have noticed this. Initially my one night fighter squadron (beaufighters) shot down about 4 bettys on the first raid that they faced. But I am not sure if they have ever scored another kill. I don't think my night fighters have been anymore effective than regular fighters but I have not tested this enough.
But at night bombers vs fighter fire seems to be very effective vs non-night fighters. Perhaps this is WAD as any non radar equipped fighter would have to get pretty dang close to a bomber to have a decent shot and at close range the bomber gunners would also be able to get in some licks. Also, I doubt very seriously if there was much deflection fire by either side at night. Just direct approaches with easy lines for defensive fire.
However, the losses to either the bombers or fighters are so far negligable so I don't care much and any fighter does seem to disrupt night attacks with some bombers just turning away.
There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.
Yes, I have noticed this. Initially my one night fighter squadron (beaufighters) shot down about 4 bettys on the first raid that they faced. But I am not sure if they have ever scored another kill. I don't think my night fighters have been anymore effective than regular fighters but I have not tested this enough.
But at night bombers vs fighter fire seems to be very effective vs non-night fighters. Perhaps this is WAD as any non radar equipped fighter would have to get pretty dang close to a bomber to have a decent shot and at close range the bomber gunners would also be able to get in some licks. Also, I doubt very seriously if there was much deflection fire by either side at night. Just direct approaches with easy lines for defensive fire.
However, the losses to either the bombers or fighters are so far negligable so I don't care much and any fighter does seem to disrupt night attacks with some bombers just turning away.
I'm playing the AI, and their night bombing hasn't been very effective so long as a get some fighters up. I've actually been using some of my more depleted groups with about 6 planes as night fighters because they seem to do a good job of disrupting the attacks.
I'm thinking about personal house rules to keep things in hand:
1) Night bombing of cities: go all out.
2) Night bombing of industry and ports: only when moonlight is greater than 50%.
3) Night bombing of airfields: only when moonlight is greater than 50% and using airgroups on 50% rest.
...FWIW, the AI Japanese fly "night fighters" pretty much all the time, especialy Nates. If someone can tell me how these crates can find incoming bombers, let alone attack them, I'll listen to arguments that the attack code is too powerful.
Maybe you could speak to the brains trust of the Regia Aeronautica who used CR.42 (biplane) and IIRC Re.2001 (monoplane) as quick fix nightfighters. Both those planes were better than the Nate but their real world results were on a par with your AI Nate results.
A couple of days late, but what the heck, the temptation was too great considering your latest signoff.[:D]
If it is decided to change how night bombing works, I really want my para frags back. I think too much damage is done to the runway. Just a quick glance through some books, I couldn't find anyplace where we blasted an airfield like we do in the game. But I did find countless reports where the aircraft were pretty much wiped out. We had it down to a science that when IJAF moved in planes we destroyed most on the ground shortly after they arrived. So as a Japanese player which would you prefer, night time attacks that destroy the planes or day time raids which wipe out the planes?
Maybe you could speak to the brains trust of the Regia Aeronautica who used CR.42 (biplane) and IIRC Re.2001 (monoplane) as quick fix nightfighters. Both those planes were better than the Nate but their real world results were on a par with your AI Nate results.
Yeahbut, yeahbut, everybody knows that in Italy, "When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie . . ."
"When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool . . ."
I should repeat, that I don't see much problems with night bombing. It is only truly effective for Allied heavies, and then only when they meet no night CAP. Heavy fighter losses on night CAP are somewhat of a problem, but using armored and tougher fighters, like Toryus, mostly solves it. For example, here's the night bombing results from the last turn in my current PBEM (high level of moonlight):
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Night Air attack on Ledo , at 65,38
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 20
Allied aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
C-47 Skytrain: 1 destroyed on ground
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
20 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
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Night Air attack on Imphal , at 60,40
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 11
No Japanese losses
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-49-Ia Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
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Night Air attack on Trinkat , at 44,64
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 5
Allied aircraft
A-24 Banshee x 7
SBD-3 Dauntless x 11
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
7 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/A with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
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Night Air attack on Trinkat , at 44,64
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 4
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 19
Wellington Ic x 13
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Airbase supply hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
6 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/A with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
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Night Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 7
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 7
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged (2 bombers destroyed actually, both by fighters)
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/C with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (2 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
The only situation when night bombing might possibly be overpoweringly strong, from my experience (save for exploitation of mistakes, like an overstacked airfield) is night raids on manpower by massed Allied heavies late in the war. Manpower gets hit even despite fighter interference, and Japanese nightfighters are more or less ineffective against B-29s. But then, that's how it was...
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
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Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 145 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 42
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 4 destroyed on ground
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 159 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 54 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 33
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 19
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 93 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Especially the last attack with, 6 bombers 32 hits = > 50% hitrate and night and 15k feet. Attack was done 6/43 and even if the launch was from a lvl 9 base, two lvl 8 bases would be enough to launch such a raid. Just much to strong currently.
Well, sorry, but that's what you get for poor play. If you take no countermeasures against a certain sort of attack, and the enemy invests in it heavily, it is reasonable to expect this attack to be effective.
Well, sorry, but that's what you get for poor play. If you take no countermeasures against a certain sort of attack, and the enemy invests in it heavily, it is reasonable to expect this attack to be effective.
I really do not think that "quality" of play has any effect in this case. As i am the allied player here i can ensure you that there was no heavy investment in anything regarding to 4E in this game as they just kill any balance.
Currently i would say 4E are some sort of void zone generators 43+. Get a lvl 9 base somewhere and after 4 weeks crush any Japanese air resistance in a 16 hex radius.
Kill his night fighters during the day with 4E and AF attack, sweep his day fighters during the day at 40k feet or just nuke them during the night.
An as an allied player i state again, >50% hit rate of 4E @ 15k feet during the night is not even overpowered, it is just laughable ....
Just a note on how fighters found targets in the sky at night.
Remember how in basic training we all learned how far a single lit cigarette can be seen at night? Well, the engines on the planes of those days were belching fire from their exhausts, to the extent some even had in field "deflectors" welded on to prevent night blinding their own pilots.
Of course it stands to reason enemy pilots would be able to see the same light when it presented itself, at a distance.
Some of those planes also used "formation marker lights" on their wings at night of different colors than the navigational lights we are familiar with now..
I believe one of my books said the Japanese used green and white wingtip lights, which Mitschers' planes used to guide them in..
IMHO while a bright moon might aid bomber pilots in this regard, it might hinder the ability of intercepting fighters to see the manifold flames, but the moon glinting off plexiglass might make up for it.
The concept of night interception goes back to WWI, certainly before RADAR.
