Rail Misery - Enhancement/Change

[MattFL]

Not sure where this type of thing should be posted, so I'll post here.

I have two things I'd like to point out that I feel are changes that should be made to the game as far as rails are concerned.

First, I think that the whole partisan/rail damage thing is a bit too severe. I understand that Partisans can cut a rail line and that therefore it is perfectly logical that supplies are cut down and can't move across that rail from the supply source. That's fine, no problem. But what I have issue with is the fact that a partisan cuts the rail line and then the entire rail line becomes entirely unusable for troop movement in the section beyond the damaged section for movement that would start and finish beyond where the rail line was cut. I guess what I'm saying is let's take the example of a deep german thrust along a single converted rail line. German troops in this example are shifting from Army Group Center to Army group south by going around the Pripet marshes, but the distance is so far that they can't make it one turn, so they remain entrained en route.. Now, if a partisan cuts the rail behind them during the Russian turn, this renders the entire rail line unsuable and suddenly the troops that are moving on the train can no longer move because a rail line was cut hundreds of miles behind them. It seems pretty unreasonable to me to have 800 miles of track rendered entirely useless because 100 guys cut 10 miles worth of rail. I understand that you shouldn't be able to move across the damaged section, but rail movement should still be allowed along undamaged stretches of rail. I understand that someone might say to "repair more rail to create some redundancy" or "use more garrisons to stop the partisans" etc.. , but that doesn't eliminate the issue of huge sections of track being entirely unusable. I guess I just don't understand how a rail cut near Lvov stops trains near Stalino! Like I said, I understand how it cuts supplies, I don't understand how it stops troops on the rail already east of Lvov from continuing their train ride or, for that matter, troops from Stalino riding back to where the cut was made near Lvov.

The second issue is less a train issue and has to do with the whole Hungarians/Romanian thing. I understand that you can't stack these troops with each other, but it seems a bit extreme that they can't move along the rail through each other's countries without stopping.

That's it, just a few minor frustrations from a German player taking his first winter '41 ass whipping and having difficulty not so much with the Russian army, but more from the partisan unit who managed to do far more damage to Army Group South than the Russians. Cutting the rail, putting guys into 'far from railhead' and isolated status which seems to about double the damage they take when forced to retreat and then being near impossible to catch because my security units can't move through each other's countries and no units can ride the train back from the front to deal with them because they cut 10 miles of track and thus rended about a 1,000 miles of track entirely unusable....

[Redmarkus5]

+1 Two very valid comments

[Manstein63]

2 very good points what I think should be happening is that supply should be traced from the broken rail-hex but rail movement should be allowed in either direction of where the line has been cut. Maybe the hex should be alowed auto repair its self after 1 week  providing that there are no partisan units within 5 hexes? of the break.

[pompack]

I've never had any problem keeping my rail lines open before 1944.

Now the background:
1) keep every city garrisoned to the green (blue? anyway not red or yellow)
2) break down the security divisions to regiments and disperse them throughout the high-threat areas as city garrisons.
3) break down the LW field divisions and use them for city garrisons, excess disperse along high threat rail lines
4) garrison south of the Allies line with Allied troops to free up German security and LW field divisions for the high threat areas
5) kill EVERY partisan as soon as one pops it's head up (not always possible when they are in the middle of the swamp but try anyway; this insures that you can get them the second turn)

[cookie monster]

Are you garrisoning your towns/cities?

I have no idea if partisans are that much of a problem to the Axis,when towns are garrisoned.

[dazoline II]

From a user that garrisons every city I capture.

I've had an incomplete partsan unit a "1-0" unit cut a rail line by just magically appearing on that hex. Playing as the Germans these 1-0 units are invisible and was about to start a tech support rant about it when I decided to open up the game from the SU side. Sure enough the map was speckled with 1-0 units and the cut line had a new 1-0 partsan in the hex.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: dazoline II

From a user that garrisons every city I capture.

I've had an incomplete partsan unit a "1-0" unit cut a rail line by just magically appearing on that hex. Playing as the Germans these 1-0 units are invisible and was about to start a tech support rant about it when I decided to open up the game from the SU side. Sure enough the map was speckled with 1-0 units and the cut line had a new 1-0 partsan in the hex.

You mean that "PC" (Partisan Cadre) units are cutting rail lines? I haven't seen that...

[dazoline II]

Yes.

The only way I noticed it, is it happened on a spur line that I was extending. When I went to extend the line with one of the rail repair birgades it wouldn't let me fix it. The only visual clue I got was from the rail mode view where part of the spur line had the "..." through the green spots.

I've only seen it once myself as I guess I got extremely unlucky with what hex the partisan unit decided to start forming in.

[Redmarkus5]

Thanks

[MattFL]

Just to follow up, i realize that much of this can be avoided by properly having garrisons in place, particularly along important rail lines. Yea yea yea, i get it. This is my first GC and I started without having read very much of the rulebook so I wasn't properly garrisoning the towns. Unfortunately for me, the first partisans didn't show up until Mud came and that's when i started garrisoning. One further mistake i made was that I was primarily using Hungarian security units and fast motorized to track down any partisans that show up. But my primary rail line east runs through Romania (essentially, i doubled up the FDB units to get faster supply to rostov rather than building out two separate lines). So the problem is that when the rail is cut, the Hungarians can't move through Romania by rail to chase down the Partisans and my armies at the Front by Rostov can't move back on the rails to the cut to get rid of the partisans.

Again, however, this isn't the point though. The point is that the a cut rail line should not render the rail unusable for rail movement east of the cut. It should only stop rail movement across the cut. That is what I have issue with. It makes no sense to me at all that the troops at Rostov can't use any trains at all along the entire front or back to where the rail was cut. How does a cut near Krivoi Rog effect the trains running between Stalino and Kharkov??? It seems heavyhanded to say the least and more than a little unrealistic. I can hear the Feldgendarmerie at the front saying, "Sorry, the trains are all shut down now becuase 68 partisans cut a tiny stretch of rail immobilizing a million germans at the front. Don't worry though, we're brokering a deal between Hungary and Romania to allow each other to pass through each other's countries on trains. In the meantime, we suggest that one of you detach a motorized regiment and drive the 300 miles to the rear to clear off those 68 men because apparently the 9 construction battalions that are within 30 miles of the partisans weren't issued any weapons to drive them off."

Rant over. [;)]

[Redmarkus5]

LOL I agree 100% with the rant

[Montbrun]

The Hungarian/Rumanian thing, as is in-game, is very appropriate. Hell would freeze over before either country would allow the other country's forces within their borders, whether on a train, or not. There were many border clashes between Hungary and Rumania during the war. When Rumania defected, the first thing their High Command ordered was operations against Hungary, the recovery of Transylvania, and the taking of Budapest.

You make a valid point about Partisan rail disruption, but, as a game, some things are abstracted, or "represent" other things. Entrained units that encounter a rail break would have to detrain at the break, and after sufficient rolling stock was accumulated on the other side of the break, re-entrain. This rarely, if ever, happened historically. Rail transport planning was almost an art form for the Germans. The amount of rolling stock necessary to lift even one division, and all of it's "tail" units, was huge. It was easier for the entrained units to wait until the track was repaired, than having to jump through all of the other hoops.

Brad

[pompack]

+1

[MattFL]

You make a valid point about Partisan rail disruption, but, as a game, some things are abstracted, or "represent" other things. Entrained units that encounter a rail break would have to detrain at the break, and after sufficient rolling stock was accumulated on the other side of the break, re-entrain. This rarely, if ever, happened historically. Rail transport planning was almost an art form for the Germans. The amount of rolling stock necessary to lift even one division, and all of it's "tail" units, was huge. It was easier for the entrained units to wait until the track was repaired, than having to jump through all of the other hoops.

You are correct when it comes to moving across the break, that shouldn't be allowed for all of the reasons you point out above. But read my posts again and you'll see where you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

[Redmarkus5]

He is talking about units using the track between a point 100km east of the break and another point a further 50km east again. They never go near the break but they can't use the rail line/rolling stock that would inevitably be available at multiple points.

[Montbrun]

As long as your rail lines connect to the West somewhere, it shouldn't be a problem. If they don't, then you get the scenario I described, which, IMHO, is historical. The Germans had no Eisenbahn facilities or planning staff deep in the Soviet Union. All central planning, which was meticulous, happened in Germany, with facilities West of the pre-1941 borders. The Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft wasn't capable of "winging it." Also, only certain main trunk lines were primarily used. The rail supply and transport line system was, in actuality, quite fragile. Damaged lines could be easily and quickly repaired, but the rolling stock frequently was then diverted to other uses. Here's a good article, hitting the highlights:

Eisenbahn

Keep in mind, that trying to simulate the Axis rail operations in the Soviet Union, would be a game unto itself. For WitE, "compromises" have to be made to keep from having "Rail Management in the East." The bottom line is that, if a rail line is disrupted in some way, on an isloated line, the player needs to "feel the pain." Supplies and troop movement need to be disrupted. Like I said earlier, if you have contiguous rail lines to the West within the rail system, there's no problem - you should be able to "go around" the break. Otherwise, what's the point of even having Partisans in the game?

[Redmarkus5]

The thing is that once a decision has been made to model the partisans and their effect on rail transport, a certain level of detail is called for. It also needs to be borne in mind that not all supply was moved by rail. Particularly during summer 1941 Rollbahn Ost (comprising a road full of trucks of all models and makes, all heading east) was the primary source of supply for the front, not the railheads, IIRC.

A point (just constructive brainstorming) that could be considered for WiTE 2 is that supply might need to be broken down into;

- Fuel (which comes from refineries in the west until Maikop etc are captured and repaired).
- Ammo (which comes from Axis factories).
- Foodstuffs (which come n% from the west and n% from regional or local sources or stockpiles).

So, when a rail line is broken its effect is to:

- Halt all movement of units by rail across the breach.
- Reduce fuel supplies by an amount to be determined, after taking alternate rail routes, other sources, vehicle borne supplies, supply dumps and unit stocks into account (averaged out and/or abstracted).
- Reduce ammo STOCKS in a similar way, taking note of the fact that if a unit has not seen combat during the turn its ammo stocks should not be depleted merely because the rail line has been cut.
- Reduce food stocks more slowly or by smaller increments, factoring in the terrain (e.g. clear could = farm land) and the proximity of major towns or cities which will have their own stocks for the civilian population.

All of the above should be hidden from the player, but the effect could be to avoid the absolutism of the rail cutting paradigm in the current design and make the impact of partisans more realistic - they can't win the war for you, but they can slowly degrade the enemy's supply state over time.

It pains me to say it, but this is probably the one area in which HOI does a better job than WiTE. In HOI, partisan activity is fully abstracted (there are no 'units') and the level and impact of partisan activity is related to the strength and calibre of the regional garrison. A similar approach would solve a number of WiTE issues in one blow.

[MattFL]

Just the latest updates to my rail line misery....

Apparently the hatred between the Romanians and Hungarians is far worse than I thought. I had Romanian security units garrisoning various cities along my rail line - you know, to help out against those pesky partisans. However, when trying to move my Hungarian reinforements to the front, I discovered that not only can they not move through Romanian territory, but they can't even move through a Romanian occupied city. So the Romanians have to leave the city, let the Hungarians pass, and then they can garrison the city again. Not too big a deal i guess, but it is the same issue in part as my original issue. Just a minor annoyance...

A second issue I have is that if you move by rail next to a partisan it doesn't displace the partisan. Even if you get off the trains, doesn't matter. You have to stop a space a way and actually MOVE by ground to displace the partisans. I understand not displacing them while on the train, but having to dismount 10 miles away and march to them by foot is, well, not ideal.

That's it for now. Winter is over and my rail lines are in good hands.