41 Grand Campaign Me(sov) vs ComradeP (axis)

[notenome]

Thank Flav. The bug prooved devastating to me. Thanks to it something inbetween 1/4 to 1/5 of my troops had zero MPs, which prevented me from adjusting my positioning in the center and allowed the pocket to happen. Part o me is glad for it though, as its made things much more exciting.

[PMCN]

Looking at the last battle I'd be curious to see the last bit of the battle result window.  Your side starts with a base of CV 73, and suffers no real casualties...so the 73 probably remains.  He starts at 120.  You may have gotten some very good luck there in the form of a rare case of your CV's getting doubled up while he may have gotten a painful case of his CV getting halved down.  Also I'd say he was also seriously hurting for ammo, only the first attack gets hit with normal levels of casualties the others that is too insignificant for words. 

73x2=146 vrs 60 is 2.4 with the +1 that is 3.4 and the odds show as 3.3...  You seriously lucked out if that happened.  What is barely visible appears to be his CV at 104 and yours at 334...I'd be curious to see an official response on how you got 4x your starting CV out of this battle (even if that is a 234 or something of that nature I'm very curious what gives you more than 2x the initial starting value).

Your casualties in a lot of those attacks look to be mainly from the SUs not the panzer division...600-ish in the second could easily just be from the II/61st Art Bn and the 2 Flak Bn.  The 570 losses you took in the last attack may well have been caused in the air bombardment phase in conjunction with fire from the SU's he got (the II/61st and the mixed flak).  The II/61st shows up 4 times so they would have been hurting for ammo by the end as well.

Added in Edit: ok just hunted through the manual, it clearly states that severe ammunition shortages can drastically reduce CV...given the fact it doesn't look like the Pz division fired at all in anything but the first battle it probably had limited ammo on hand. The reason for this battle being successful has nothing to do with +1 odd modifiers, and everything to do with that plus possible good rolls doubling up attacking Russian CVs. I can't even begin to understand the 1st PM Moscow Rifle division battle...0 losses on his side to 201 on yours? Too bad you didn't watch these in some detail because seeing what happened there would be enlightening. I suspect that one is due to the bug on loss display, you probably didn't destroy anything and so the counter never started advancing...otherwise it makes no sense.

[raizer]

when odds at at 1 to 119 how much ammo is actually expended by the unit defending with overwhelming odds? 

I take it one can throw a single brigade at a panzer division at it will expend the same amount of ammo as if it were delib attacked by 9 divisions?

If this is the case, then dancing crappy units in front of enemy full up monsters might become a viable tactic in this game

[PMCN]

The attack by the Tank Division...96 tank losses may mean a lot of things, but the display advance 1 destroyed tank for every 2 damaged ones so there were likely very few functional AFVs left in the unit, its infantry took a good wholloping and so its CV was clobbered...this is why the 1:119 odds is there.  There was a goodly amount of shooting but that could have all been from the two flak bn.  I have seen a single mixed flak bn inflict 80 tank loses...2 getting 96 is not impossible. Added in edit: It started with 132 tanks and 96 show as losses i doubt 1 functional tank remained...with a starting base CV of 12 (before halving for hasty) that wasn't a division that was a shell most of those 8000 men it shows are support squads. It probably lost virtually every single rifle squad and tank in the unit.

A panzer division in the 3rd week of isolation in a blizzard inflicted 5000 men, 50 guns and 70 tanks in losses when I crushed it, it only had 6000 men, 100 guns and 60 tanks.  This one largely seems to be doing nothing and I mean that quite literally.  Nothing, nada, zip.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely
I can't even begin to understand the 1st PM Moscow Rifle division battle...0 losses on his side to 201 on yours? Too bad you didn't watch these in some detail because seeing what happened there would be enlightening. I suspect that one is due to the bug on loss display, you probably didn't destroy anything and so the counter never started advancing...otherwise it makes no sense.

PM stands for People's Militia. They're really really bad on the attack, but those 0 to several hundred results look a bit ludicrous.

The question is how many devices were damaged - but not destroyed - by the attack. This turn I conducted a hasty attack with two cavalry divisions which suffered 2500 losses combined and inflicted 0 losses on a the 7 PzDiv. After that, I clobbered a bit the PzDiv with the VVS and a deliberate attack by two Rifle Divisions made it to retreat and lose 10% of its infantry, half its artillery and 30% of its AFVs.

BTW, I second the compliments on notenome. It takes a lot of nerve to pull the trigger on this kind of "suicidal attacks" not to mention the fact that mustering the forces you're sacrificing it's not trivial. The feeling of desperation these attacks have is what has me hooked on the Soviets

[PMCN]

There is a display bug, the losses counter does not start advancing until something is destroyed and even then it is far from correct.  I imagine there was a number of damaged devices just nothing destroyed in the attack.  Their artillery should have damaged a few things even if they barely know one end of the rifle from the other.  The strength of the Panzer division is remarkable constant, they suffered no losses of significance before the last one.

Also frankly he got lucky.  So lucky he should go light a few candles or something.  That was divine intervention.  Unless I am misunderstanding what I am seeing here, that was true divine intervention.  The Panzer division in question only actually participated in the 1st attack after that the only thing firing was the HQ sent support units.

And this is the cause of the campaign against the +1??  Oh lord spare us all.  It is a flaming bloodly fluke of luck nothing more.  Again unless I bloody well am completely out to freak'n lunch here it is a case of using up your good karma for the next three months.

[notenome]

Paul none of the above posts had anything to do with +1, as I mentioned before the last attack would have suceeded without the +1 modifier. This was a case of me experimenting (and I have experimented a lot in this game) with a new counterattacking doctrine, namely wearing down divisions with suicidal small scale attacks before a large scale one. Also note that the trebling of my CV at the end of the last assault may have something to do with 12 artillery regiments assigned to 20th Army, Rokossovky and me setting two tank brigades in reserve behind the lines (no clue if this has any real impact). I don't think it was a question of luck, but a gamble. I gambled that the panzer division would be low on ammo after a month of constant fighting (it almost certaintly was). Had the gamble not payed off, it is likely I would have experienced a front collapse in the northern part of Western Front next turn (which is still possible).

[Flaviusx]

His mobile divisions are probably getting pretty fatigued up there, btw. At max fatigue, this is up to a 30% penalty for him.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: notenome
Also note that the trebling of my CV at the end of the last assault may have something to do with 12 artillery regiments assigned to 20th Army, Rokossovky and me setting two tank brigades in reserve behind the lines (no clue if this has any real impact).

Did they take part in the battle appearing as reserves? If so, they surely did.

[PMCN]

notenome...trippling your CV is not in the manual.  Doubling it is, if it can triple that is something I'd love to see an official statement on.  Infact I checked out ComradeP's section and one of his complaints against the +1 is again to due with an attack where you got lucky with the doubling.  That short french generalismo was fond of Generals that get lucky...I'm not so much into that sort of thing.  The doubling of final adjusted CV value is due to leader rolls, but the manual is a lot vague on details, which is why an official statement would be very good to have.

If you had not gotten that modification the last attack would have failed, and I doubt you needed the soak off attacks, they probably did nothing but waste your troops.  The last attack (assuming the other rolls remained the same to produce the tripling) would have worked if it had been the second attack you threw in.  The first attack used up all the ammunition the panzer division had from the looks of things.  None of the other losses you suffered appeared to come from it, they were all on the scale the HQ sent support units could have caused them.  If you had watched the battles in detail you would have not sent in the 1st PM Moscow I think since you would have not seen any fire from the Pz division at the Tank Division just the Flak Bn...or at least that is my read on the situation.

Gambling is based on luck.  You got divine intervention.  That should have been a disaster, it was not due to "Amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics."  ComradeP didn't pay the slightest attention to the supply and ammo level of his units and that hurt him here.  It took a great deal of intestinal fortitude on your part to do this, my hat is off to you; but divine intervention isn't something I'd start basing your battle plans on, but then you aren't me.  I'm a lot more conservative.  I hope your luck holds and you kick his butt all over the place.

The point about the +1 campaign is that because you have had some attacks where you first off got the doubling effect of lucky leader rolls you had a number of marginal attacks succeed.  This ComradeP is blaming this on the +1 when the root cause isn't the +1 but infact the effect of leader rolls on adjusted CV.  The +1 is the cherry on top, not the issue itself.

I find this all rather amusing...when I am not shaking my head at the hand of god event you just had here.  There should have been angelic choirs singing in the background during that last attack you threw in...Gregorian chant at the very least.

[Flaviusx]

I have never been able to get Pieter to understand the absolutely essential role of leadership in these counterattacks. It's one of our ongoing arguments. It's part of the reason he's never understood my mania for disbanding corps HQs.

These attacks do not work automatically. You have to tease your command and control into shape to really make them fly. Soviet units in 41 are very bad...and that makes them extremely responsive to leadership. A good general has a disproportionate effect on battles in a way not true for the Germans, simply because German morale and experience is so high to begin with.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

notenome...trippling your CV is not in the manual.  Doubling it is, if it can triple that is something I'd love to see an official statement on.  Infact I checked out ComradeP's section and one of his complaints against the +1 is again to due with an attack where you got lucky with the doubling.  That short french generalismo was fond of Generals that get lucky...I'm not so much into that sort of thing.  The doubling of final adjusted CV value is due to leader rolls, but the manual is a lot vague on details, which is why an official statement would be very good to have.

We didn't get to see if any of those bdes in reserve were committed to the attack nor how much (and what) artillery intervened in the combat. If the tank bdes were committed and the arty were RVGK regiments or similar, I think that "tripling" would be explained away. Not to mention he had Rokossovsky there: leaders like him or Vatutin are great "equalizers".

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely
If you had not gotten that modification the last attack would have failed, and I doubt you needed the soak off attacks, they probably did nothing but waste your troops.  The last attack (assuming the other rolls remained the same to produce the tripling) would have worked if it had been the second attack you threw in.  The first attack used up all the ammunition the panzer division had from the looks of things.  None of the other losses you suffered appeared to come from it, they were all on the scale the HQ sent support units could have caused them.  If you had watched the battles in detail you would have not sent in the 1st PM Moscow I think since you would have not seen any fire from the Pz division at the Tank Division just the Flak Bn...or at least that is my read on the situation.

Device damage, fatigue and "combat disruption" (which sometimes is referred to it as being different from device fatigue) accumulate all along the phasing player turn. Those suicidal attacks are very costly, but also tend to be quite effective to wear Germans out.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
These attacks do not work automatically. You have to tease your command and control into shape to really make them fly. Soviet units in 41 are very bad...and that makes them extremely responsive to leadership. A good general has a disproportionate effect on battles in a way not true for the Germans, simply because German morale and experience is so high to begin with.

We should compile all of your remarks somewhere and put them into a FAQ, Flavius.

[Flaviusx]

Paul, for myself, I like Notenome's style.

It's not gambling. The game has momentum. A really good player can intuit the ebb and flow of the game and use momentum to his advantage. Right now, the big mo is working in Notenome's advantage by Smolensk, and he is pressing it for all it is worth, and this is, in my estimation, absolutely correct.

Every turn Pieter is stuck in this mess by Smolensk is another turn his mobile divisions are getting fatigued and going through their supplies. Most of them I think are at the point where they need to be pulled back and rest and refit. But they can't do that. Not so long as Notenome is going medieval and contesting the pocket. He absolutely should continue to do so and make Pieter work for it and burn out the panzer divisions. By the time they cleans this mess up and rest themselves for another big push...game over. Mud. Notenome is doing it exactly right.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: raizer

when odds at at 1 to 119 how much ammo is actually expended by the unit defending with overwhelming odds? 

I take it one can throw a single brigade at a panzer division at it will expend the same amount of ammo as if it were delib attacked by 9 divisions?

If this is the case, then dancing crappy units in front of enemy full up monsters might become a viable tactic in this game

Although it did not apply to this particular battle, I think this is a good question as I saw another AAR where the Russian launched several spoiling attacks on a German defender to burn up ammo/cause fatigue and then dropped the hammer with a big attack. Not saying this should or should not happen, but certainly I am curious on the ammo expenditure.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: miller41

ORIGINAL: notenome

I just use paint and glue my screenies together and then save them as jpegs. So far haven't had any problems. Thanks for the complements.

Are you talking about paint from windows? I can't figure out how to glue them together (call me simple I guess[:D])

1. Download and install Paint.net. It's free and way superior to Windows Paint.

2. Screen cap your first image.

3. Go to Paint.net>Edit and select "Paste into new image".

4. Crop the new image as you wish.

5. Now go "Select All" (Ctrl+A) and "Copy" (Ctrl+C)

6. Open "New". The default new image size will be the same as the copied image area, so change the size of the new image before you open it (say to 2 or 3 times larger).

7. Paste ((Ctrl+V) the cropped image into the blank new image and drag it to where you want it. Do not deselect or do any other action before you have dragged it around.

8. Go back to the game and screen cap your next image. Make sure that it includes a small overlap so that you'll be able to line it up properly with the earlier one.

9. Paste the new screenie into its own new image in paint.net and crop this one as well.

10 Go Select All and Copy again.

11. Go back to the larger image you created at step 6 (the one with your first screenie and loads of extra white space) and paste the second cropped image in there. Move it around until it sits where you want it.

12. Save as a PDN file - the default setting.

13. Repeat to add more images or draw arrows etc. on top. (Later, you can start to use layers, but not at this stage).

14. "Save As" a Jpeg (Ctrl+S) and reduce the resolution in the save dialogue until the image size is less than 500kb.

15. Post your result in the forums and PM me so that I can have a look and make encouraging (but rather superior) comments

[raizer]

guys do this in tillers HPS games, dance units in front of big defenses, get them to use up their opportunity fire up, then bring in the hammer, where there is no more shooting left for the defenders.  We dont have op fire here but doing this might be worse, if there is no proportionality when it comes to expending ammo 

[PMCN]

My main point is that the rules in the manual speak of doubling of final adjusted CV not tripling.  There is no effect of artillery, reserves that are not committed to the battle that I can find in the manual with respect to this final CV adjustment.  But the whole section is not exactly clear...very vague and wishy washy.

I admire his guts Flavius and I hope he kicks Pieter's butt all around the map but I also call a spade a spade.  That was divine intervention.  Under normal circumstances that attempt of his to displace that panzer division would have failed.  It didn't because he got lucky, he got lucky with an attack with a bunch of Rifle divisions as well earlier that set Pieter's teeth on edge.

 I agree completely that sometimes you just do the best you can and then roll the die.  I don't know about momentum I mainly popped in to find out what set off ComradeP's witch hunt over the +1 odds adjustment, something that to me is wildly disproportionate to the reality of the effect.  Frankly I am grinning and enjoying the situation he put himself in here and again I hope Notenome boots his ass all over the place.  Go Soviets go! 

[Flaviusx]

By momentum, I mean having a feel for the state of the other side.

I think Pieter's boys are tired and running low on supply and gas up there. That's exactly the time when you as the Soviet want to hurl yourself with wild abandon at the panzers. The panzers are not invincible and can be manhandled when they're tuckered out. They are reaching that point.

You're getting a bit bogged down in the minutiae of individual combat results and missing the larger operational picture here, Paul.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: raizer

guys do this in tillers HPS games, dance units in front of big defenses, get them to use up their opportunity fire up, then bring in the hammer, where there is no more shooting left for the defenders.  We dont have op fire here but doing this might be worse, if there is no proportionality when it comes to expending ammo 

Go and watch the film "Zulu" starring Michael Caine (great film, by the way). Maybe that's where this tactic comes from