Dear Ivan: A RtLenigrad friendly PvP AAR/tutorial

[56ajax]

Excellent; (i think you have too much 'weight' down South and are moving too slow, but ...prove me wrong...I typically use the AGC divs to take VL and RZ); do you ever change your corps commanders in a scenario?. Keep it coming please.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

Excellent; (i think you have too much 'weight' down South and are moving too slow, but ...prove me wrong...I typically use the AGC divs to take VL and RZ); do you ever change your corps commanders in a scenario?. Keep it coming please.

Moving too slowly? In saying that, what do you assert would have made me move faster? I find that comment puzzling, because my infantry has moved as fast as possible and my armor's priority was enabling that movement.

There were a couple other factors at work in my movement plan that I'm not willing to discuss, mind you. Part of 'the plan' I've been working under.

In a scenario like this, I horde APs for important turns. Over the course of 17 turns, I'm uncertain how much impact different commanders can have - it's an area of the game I have not played with much. And where I have, it's been on the Soviet side - they have really bad commanders in places, and good ones can make a huge difference. But the Germans start with competence.

Next time I play one of the scenarios I understand well, I'll tinker with that as the German to see if it increases my supply and corresponding infantry movement.

But I like to save APs for HQ buildup as the Germans. And on occasion, I have made use of the ability to motorize an infantry unit and just send him screaming along to catch up to the armor. That probably causes a lot of truck-driver suicide, though.

[heliodorus04]

Combats will now be analyzed… Starting with this Hasty attack that was within 5 of the HQ of the units in question (without having moved).



T5 C1 Hasty
This ain’t T1 anymore, Hans! Note that not even a reduction in Fort level! I actually have to question the artillery of the Axis side. ZERO CV? Not sure I understand why… But I don’t watch detailed combat returns. Maybe it’s a range thing (as in: Germans too close to fire arty). Now, the only thing I have to say here to explain myself is that I actually didn’t notice that there was armor there… At least I got a fair number of aircraft, which I’m very glad about. That helps the Axis VPs a good bit on occasion.

[heliodorus04]

Same hex, same attackers/defenders (I figured they weren’t going to get any farther that turn anyway, and besides, their HQ was in range!).




Same basic results. My power didn’t change much, his came down a little. Still no fort destruction, which is all I was really hoping for with a second Hasty, but don’t worry, Hans. Things WILL get better…

[heliodorus04]

Now, I want to see what I can do against Pskov with deliberate attacks. The entire point of my bringing these infantry and armor up together on line, in mass, was so that I could use deliberate attacks (I thought my prior attacks would free up the right flank of my armor and that 3 Hans Inf Divs could dislodge 2 Ivan Divs in a level 2 Fort (probably could’ve if it weren’t for that armor…




What! Odds of 1 to 2.4? WTF?

Okay, I was stunned by this result. FIVE Hans Inf attacking a Div & a brigade? If you’re looking at the German combat elements, you’ll notice one thing: I only attacked with THREE infantry divisions (I didn’t notice this until I was editing the screen-shot). A careless error of the mouse-click. How very little-corporal of me!

There are a couple good things here, though. First, look at all the support units I brought to bear. I think in that stack there are two corps in the fight. I don’t know if it’s helpful or hurtful to a combat when you have multiple commands in one fight (if we look at the principals of warfare, one would think it’s bad). Second, I inflicted more casualties than I took (which is the opposite of those hasty attacks). Third, I got some more of the Red Air Force. But that’s about all that went well here. Look at those modified combat values! Oh, I just noticed something: y Command Mod is 80 percent… That’s probably the inefficiency brought about by having multiple commands. I’m not ready to do the calculations, but we could figure out who might have been removed to increase that percentage, and then see whether it was better to add the unit(s) from a separate command, or proceed with a smaller attack.

Also note on this attack that the stack which attacked was across a minor river. The whole reason I wanted those other two divisions was to minimize that river penalty… Let me leave that mistake with a D’Oh. I’m sure Pensfan has mistakes he regrets, and if he doesn’t, well hopefully he soon will…

[heliodorus04]

Now, even before I realized that I had only used three divisions in the Pskov attack when I meant to use 5, I started an attack with the 2 divisions on the east side of the Velikaya. That might have been a mistake too, because I was emotional, like “Damn you, Ivan!” and I launched another deliberate attack because those units had the movement remaining…



Okay, good news first. Ivan runs away. Bad news of sorts: I had three divisions. It is apparent to me that I am not paying attention to detail, perhaps because I’m writing and playing, and talking to family… In the end, I launched the same attack I would have had I done the whole Deliberate in one click without mistakes, and I got the result I wanted. In addition to those routes, note that the Armor divisions’ mechanized corps has had to displace – dunno to where, but that should cause some harm to Soviet resupply (hopefully of ammo, which is a bit of a problem for the Soviets in 41).

Now let’s look at oddities. Well, the first thing isn’t an oddity, it’s just an observation. My German modified command mod was 90 percent. But here’s what’s odd. Look at the Soviet defending forces’ CVs. 0, 0, and 2? Is that AFTER they route? Because how did a motorcycle regiment’s CV of 2 get ballooned into 116? This makes no sense, and I’ll have to ask about the display. That figure HAS to be their CVs after they route, but that also doesn’t make sense that you’d program it to display as such… Anyone know?

Routes aren’t as good as surrenders, obviously, but those Soviet units aren’t going to be much of a factor probably for two turns at the earliest. Maybe there’s a bonus and that Motorized Div was set to static (which is what I encouraged Pensfan to do, and is solidly back by the community). If so, the downside of his static mode would be that you’ll have to move him to a railhead to get him more than one hex a turn, and I doubt you want to take him out of Static Mode (but maybe I’m wrong).

DIGRESSION: Since I’m writing, editing graphics, and playing (and being social with family, although they might disagree depending on the definition of ‘social’), I didn’t really look at the Corps command structure. Indeed, the first attack had 3 corps, 1 unit each. The second attack had 2 corps, 3 units. Thus, using more Corps might bring in more SUs, but if you look at the CVs of the SUs brought in, and contemplate the loss from Command Mod, it appears to strongly favor unity of command over more SUs. The 10 percent hit is far worse than the added value of SUs (but it’s probably not quite as linear as that, knowing Gary Grigsby…). This becomes something to ponder.

One thing I have done in this game is to make I Corps, 16 Army, and II Corps, 18 Army, into 4-division corps with a lot of SUs. I intended to use them as “hammers”. We’ll have to see how that plays out, although I think from your perspective as the AAR reader (or Pensfan) you’re not going to see that in action because I don’t include unit data like that. I might make a point to talk about when these corps are in fights and if it’s somehow noticeable, but I might forget, or I might decide that it gives too much to Pensfan.

I’m still executing the turn, but I can post these now – makes my AAR a little better organized to post them now.

[56ajax]

Moving too slowly? In saying that, what do you assert would have made me move faster? I find that comment puzzling, because my infantry has moved as fast as possible and my armor's priority was enabling that movement.

Well, IMO RtL is a race against time; you could probably eliminate the whole Soviet army but if you dont take Leningrad you lose. I have seen some AAR where the AXIS is in Pskov by turn 2, and I think historically they got there by the end of turn 3?? Unleash the panzers, refuel by air if you have to..unfortunately the closer you get, the less conducive the terrain is to the movement of armour...are you assinging pioneers directly to your attacking inf divs?; thxs

[heliodorus04]

Okay, I see your point.  And it's something to consider.  I actually had to put 1 of the 2 Ju52 air units to reserve last turn; it had taken harsh losses (less than 50 percent, but more than 25).  I'm certainly not that experienced at this game and the various strategies one can use to accelerate movement.

From my perspective, you don't get all that much mileage out of air refueling.  Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or looking at it wrong, or applying it inconsistently.  I'd enjoy knowing your specific approach in this scenario, if you can share it.

If I look back at my RtL vs. AI AAR, I actually got to Novgorod and took it around T5, without first taking Pskov (it was the great coup of that game).  But the AI is not a human by any stretch.  From my own play as Soviet, in this scenario, I saw how easy it was to slow down the German at Pskov and the Velikaya River, and I made it my mission, then as Germans here, to set up a drive that starts there with a force composition very similar to what you have at T1.  That's been my plan, and it's gone off well.

I'm not talking about the Plan for after Pskov for secrecy purposes (Pensfan is reading here, by open invitation, so I have to conceal certain things as best I can).  All I can say in my own defence is that this was the plan, and after at least the first few combats, I'm pleased at the opportunities the Plan has created.

[pensfanvw]

Ok, from this point forward I will no longer view this thread until game is over or the Axis realize the futility of breaking their non-aggression pact and retreat back to the borders.[;)]

[heliodorus04]

Now we get to “The trouble with stacks”…



On the one hand, they defend better. Reference the battles I fought first, the two hasty attacks that didn’t produce results I expected. Effective.
On the other hand, you reduce your ZOCs, making it easier for the German to maneuver. Think back to how far a panzer division can go in a turn on full fuel. Last turn, I shuffled all my armor into one Panzer Corps, and performed an HQ buildup, and my units had 46 MP to start. I could have gone a great distance on that, and spent a long time thinking over what I wanted to do.

With single unit stacks in the circled locations, I would have had to pay a lot more movement points to move freely, or else I would have had to attack certain units (and I probably would have done a little of both – that’s what I was prepared for.

Well, after those Hasty attacks failed, and the Deliberate attacks at Pskov succeeded (at least the second one did), I started to examine how that pocket is now contained, I noticed that I had 3 armored divisions and one or two motor divisions, and while killing units is no longer part of the infamous Plan I keep talking about, in this particular case, I changed the Plan in order to isolate them, hopefully making easy pickings of them next turn (not sure that will be the case, but we’ll see). Those units are exceptionally mobile, and the Tank Divs are the most powerful formations left in the Soviet arsenal. Add to that the fact that the hasty attacks against stacks were very rough for me, and I tried to do a little Armor jujitsu on Ivan, and I’m reasonably confident nothing is getting out of that pocket.

If you look at my map and compare the various red circles, putting a unit in a few of those hexes could have maintained a retreat path for those units. ZOCs inhibit the German as much, and arguably more, then solid defense in 1941. I admit you can’t defend everything. Heck, I admit that you can’t defend most of those hexes with one weak Soviet division unless you have a level 2 fort in Swamp, Rough, or woods AND behind river (woods + river).

Look, I don’t know if I’m right here. It is entirely possible that the penetration moves that were possible after Pskov feel, and which I abandoned in favor of those 7 divisions (3 Tank, 2 Mot) may actually be one of the leading factors that costs me some kind of victory. I gave up 10 to 20 hexes to do this. But I also kept my supply line close for another turn, I managed to make some pending-conversions on the way to Leningrad/Novgorod, and I am eliminating the best units in the Soviet chain of command, right now. I have 12 more turns, and that issue might also play very well, especially as I compete for both Velikie Luki (those guys were a serious threat to an advance in that direction). I thought about leaving them alone, and then I thought that in 2 turns, those units could be moved by rail to anywhere in the path of my advance, and I’d be presented with this same dilemma again. I decided that was not worth the frustration. I had them in the open with a chance at (what I think is) an unbreakable encirclement, with the entire AGN infantry body right there next to them to finish them off in T6.

The mistakes Pensfan made here are 1) failure to have a good ZOC wall to hinder armored movement, and 2) putting armor in the open.
Now the game is getting interesting…

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: pensfan

Ok, from this point forward I will no longer view this thread until game is over or the Axis realize the futility of breaking their non-aggression pact and retreat back to the borders.[;)]

Pens, considering you're doing a first Soviet game, you're welcome to read here. I encourage it. That you learn as you go means you will give me the best game possible.

I'm fine either way, though.

[56ajax]

From my perspective, you don't get all that much mileage out of air refueling. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or looking at it wrong, or applying it inconsistently. I'd enjoy knowing your specific approach in this scenario, if you can share it.

Apart from bombing airfields in turn 1, I'm not sure how much the AXIS airforce actually adds to CV so I tend to use then for supply, but it has to be their first flight of the Turn. Select Air Supply mode, highlight the unit to be supplied, shift rmc to do manual supply, select the air units to perform the mission, change LIFT TYPE to Fuel and click on launch. As an experiment try this in Turn 1; sometimes the Soviets do not intercept, sometimes they do, but you tend to have minmal losses; what is interesting is that AXIS fighters do not escort on this turn which is a bummer. I note that you sent JU 52 unit to the national reserve; in a GC this would be fine but in a scenario you may as well fly them into the ground. Just make sure they are escorted. And as far as this game is concerned, I'm an amateur, so please keep posting your thoughts and ideas.