On one hand i agree but on another i think ok it's a weeks turn. Can a division get off a train and ready to fight within a week? I don't know the answer so i'm actually askingORIGINAL: raizer
I have harped about the ability of the soviet player to use rail mode to move fresh units up right into fighting positions, into swamps, rough, detrain them and BAM! they are ready to fight. You can even rail units up one hex from the enemy, detrain them and move them the one hex into the zoc of the enemy-and you can move fresh units up along the same rails that you are evac'ing other units/factories. And the smaller scenarios this is even more powerful because who cares about evac'ing an armaments factory in a 10-17 turn game. And with the fewer units and smaller distances in the small games, rail turns the soviets into a truly mobile fighting force in 41. In 2 pbem games-small scenarios, Ive run out of rail capacity in only one turn...you can zing units all over the map-and I have never had anyone in rail get hit with interdiction, thou I have had interdiction hit normally moving ground guys several times
and yah I complained about it and was told to stop complaining and play russians if I dont like-so thats what Im doing [:)]
1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
agree (as the soviet) player who got his butt handed to him in 41 that having 60 rifle corps in 5/42 was odd.Satisfying but i wouldn't call it anywhere near what should be happening.
We have been discussing this issue in the development forums, and there are some self balancing factors that need to be taken into account. Firstly, you probably did not play with the amendments to brigade conversions and the increased costs of creating divisions, so there will be fewer divisions available to turn into corps.
Also corps are a double edged sword, in that yes you will have higher troop density for places like Stalingrad, but you will have fewer units to hold the lines, so you will have to get the balance right or risk thinning the line too much especially if the Axis does go for the Caucasus, and you are desperate to man a very extended line.
A change is AP costs for creating corps is being seriously considered.
Yea we have the new patch now but that's little help for us now. But i agree not being able to form brigades into divisions (until after winter) will be useful in the long run. Yea i know that i have to spread my front sometimes so i break them back apart. But i found it more useful making rifle corps then bothering with keeping my C&C perfect.
I'd think rifle corps at 15 or 20 AP would be better. It would take you a lot longer to roll them out as well.
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
agree (as the soviet) player who got his butt handed to him in 41 that having 60 rifle corps in 5/42 was odd.Satisfying but i wouldn't call it anywhere near what should be happening.
We have been discussing this issue in the development forums, and there are some self balancing factors that need to be taken into account. Firstly, you probably did not play with the amendments to brigade conversions and the increased costs of creating divisions, so there will be fewer divisions available to turn into corps.
Also corps are a double edged sword, in that yes you will have higher troop density for places like Stalingrad, but you will have fewer units to hold the lines, so you will have to get the balance right or risk thinning the line too much especially if the Axis does go for the Caucasus, and you are desperate to man a very extended line.
A change is AP costs for creating corps is being seriously considered.
I am slightly sceptical about this because I feel that I am already too powerful as the Soviets in Jan '42, long before I start creating Corps units. However, I really need to see how summer '42 pans out before I can make truly sensible remarks. Maybe I will get kicked off the map come June... I really hope I do![]()
I think you might get kicked a bit. Eventually ara encircled 2 armies. I don't think he really appreciated how my troops were still pretty warn out. He was very cautious i think he could have pushed more. But we are playing now where i'm falling back to rostov etc just to give him a chance at more country.
So it should at least make for a fun 43.
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Well, we have data that proves experience and morale and manpower numbers are not what that should be. If you have good data that proves your points, then you have my e-mail address, and I'll pass it on to Joel.
edit: 4. Cities generate manpower, so if you don't capture enough, Soviet manpower gets out of control - hardly limited impact.
+1 to that. those southern cities should be any good axis players target. Leningrad really seems like a red herring. The finns are not great fighting extended periods in soviet territory and they will become a liability if you count on them.
Go south. Contain leningrad. Maybe take what you can get in the center seems like a sensible axis strategy.
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- abulbulian
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: bwheatley
ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
We have been discussing this issue in the development forums, and there are some self balancing factors that need to be taken into account. Firstly, you probably did not play with the amendments to brigade conversions and the increased costs of creating divisions, so there will be fewer divisions available to turn into corps.
Also corps are a double edged sword, in that yes you will have higher troop density for places like Stalingrad, but you will have fewer units to hold the lines, so you will have to get the balance right or risk thinning the line too much especially if the Axis does go for the Caucasus, and you are desperate to man a very extended line.
A change is AP costs for creating corps is being seriously considered.
I am slightly sceptical about this because I feel that I am already too powerful as the Soviets in Jan '42, long before I start creating Corps units. However, I really need to see how summer '42 pans out before I can make truly sensible remarks. Maybe I will get kicked off the map come June... I really hope I do![]()
I think you might get kicked a bit. Eventually ara encircled 2 armies. I don't think he really appreciated how my troops were still pretty warn out. He was very cautious i think he could have pushed more. But we are playing now where i'm falling back to rostov etc just to give him a chance at more country.
So it should at least make for a fun 43.
Well my reason for not pushing is I was trying to hold the Leningrad and later the large Smolensk pocket. My troops were fatigued. You have to play axis to understand the idea of a continual push every turn is a fantasy. You'll run across fatigued troops, loses to tanks (moving mobile units far will cause many damaged vehicles, a portion of which will become destroyed in later phase). Not to mention stretched supply lines. When we started our game there was a bug in flying transports to supply units. That hurt my ability to send supplies to my penetrating mobile unit hqs.
I held that pocket and let most of your units surrender. My hope was to go into winter with a strong, rested, and entrenched line. It was my mistake to think it would make any difference in blizzard... as it did not.
Not sure how the axis can handle the current blizzard. Some say just move back and not let the sov player make deliberate attacks... well I tried that and it just means the sov player makes hasty attacks which seems to work just fine in most cases. I gave a lot of ground in those 13 blizzard turns and lost 1.2 million men.
So hindsight maybe I would have pushed more, but my opponent still had a solid line in front and it wasn't like I could push much before mud. I almost got into a lot of trouble with an operation to take Kharkov in Oct when the mud set in. Mud was almost as brutal as blizzard. I'm not happy with the def CV in mud for units dropping so low if not in direct supply. Attacking and movement of units should have dire consequences. But I had units in good supply/ammo that could defend worth crap when mud hit and they were say 1 hex from being in supply range.
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"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
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"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
- abulbulian
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
That example is showing pz units in a fort 4 holdin I think the more common was what Bill and I experienced which was when I started to try and sort of push in spr 42, my gains would be pushed back before I could fort to even 1. I'd get hammer by 6-8 rifle corps and retreat.
This was the larger issues facing the axis in 42.
This was the larger issues facing the axis in 42.
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"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: abulbulian
ORIGINAL: bwheatley
ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I am slightly sceptical about this because I feel that I am already too powerful as the Soviets in Jan '42, long before I start creating Corps units. However, I really need to see how summer '42 pans out before I can make truly sensible remarks. Maybe I will get kicked off the map come June... I really hope I do![]()
I think you might get kicked a bit. Eventually ara encircled 2 armies. I don't think he really appreciated how my troops were still pretty warn out. He was very cautious i think he could have pushed more. But we are playing now where i'm falling back to rostov etc just to give him a chance at more country.
So it should at least make for a fun 43.
Well my reason for not pushing is I was trying to hold the Leningrad and later the large Smolensk pocket. My troops were fatigued. You have to play axis to understand the idea of a continual push every turn is a fantasy. You'll run across fatigued troops, loses to tanks (moving mobile units far will cause many damaged vehicles, a portion of which will become destroyed in later phase). Not to mention stretched supply lines. When we started our game there was a bug in flying transports to supply units. That hurt my ability to send supplies to my penetrating mobile unit hqs.
I held that pocket and let most of your units surrender. My hope was to go into winter with a strong, rested, and entrenched line. It was my mistake to think it would make any difference in blizzard... as it did not.
Not sure how the axis can handle the current blizzard. Some say just move back and not let the sov player make deliberate attacks... well I tried that and it just means the sov player makes hasty attacks which seems to work just fine in most cases. I gave a lot of ground in those 13 blizzard turns and lost 1.2 million men.
So hindsight maybe I would have pushed more, but my opponent still had a solid line in front and it wasn't like I could push much before mud. I almost got into a lot of trouble with an operation to take Kharkov in Oct when the mud set in. Mud was almost as brutal as blizzard. I'm not happy with the def CV in mud for units dropping so low if not in direct supply. Attacking and movement of units should have dire consequences. But I had units in good supply/ammo that could defend worth crap when mud hit and they were say 1 hex from being in supply range.
OH i meant pushed in spring 42. But yea without seeing your axis units i guess i won't know if you really couldn't have pushed harder. From my side of the fence it seemed like you could have blown through that center you had encircled and gone towards orel. I was really more focused on Kursk/kharkov then on orel. So if you had done that it would have caught me flat footed. Thankfully you slowed up.
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
bwheatley,
Keep in mind that a division would need more than a train to move, more like 50 for a full strength infantry division and at least 300 for an armoured division. [;)]
A division should be able to detrain and fight in about a day or two if the railroad is able to deliver all the trains to a general area within a day or so. Detraining a single train should take no more than a few hours at the most.
Keep in mind that a division would need more than a train to move, more like 50 for a full strength infantry division and at least 300 for an armoured division. [;)]
A division should be able to detrain and fight in about a day or two if the railroad is able to deliver all the trains to a general area within a day or so. Detraining a single train should take no more than a few hours at the most.
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: Jalla
bwheatley,
Keep in mind that a division would need more than a train to move, more like 50 for a full strength infantry division and at least 300 for an armoured division. [;)]
A division should be able to detrain and fight in about a day or two if the railroad is able to deliver all the trains to a general area within a day or so. Detraining a single train should take no more than a few hours at the most.
Cool so it sounds possible then to de-train and ready to fight within a week?
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
For a Div, probably. Everything would have to go exactly as planned. Good luck there.
It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.
And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.
It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.
And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
For a Div, probably. Everything would have to go exactly as planned. Good luck there.
It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.
And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.
So 29 hours to load up probably same or more to off load then as well a train ride across all of the soviet union. Ok i would buy a combat reduction for the first turn after disembarking. Seems reasonable.
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
There already is a MP penalty for loading/unloading a unit onto/off the rails; who knows if it's a reasonable accurate rate or not. In my game experience loading and unloading a unit leaves it with a pretty small amount of MPs, and since you can't unload directly next to an enemy unit you have to march at least one hex to get to an attack spot. There's pretty much no chance for a deliberate attack and only a small chance at a hasty one.
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
True, but very few vehicles are transported combat ready. They have to fuel, draw ammo, food. And sort out the confusion that occurs with a long move etc.
I think there should be a 1 turn after unload pause before they can move, and they will have 1/2 CV that turn. So say turn 1 rail. Turn 2 unload, 1/2 CV during pause, then on 3rd turn they are at normal everything. The 1/2 CV will make people stop and think before railing right up to the front line. Especially with a very fluid front line.
I don't think any unit should be able to load on rail, move, and then unload the same turn. Just takes too long, unless you want to hit them with a big CV and morale penalty.
I think there should be a 1 turn after unload pause before they can move, and they will have 1/2 CV that turn. So say turn 1 rail. Turn 2 unload, 1/2 CV during pause, then on 3rd turn they are at normal everything. The 1/2 CV will make people stop and think before railing right up to the front line. Especially with a very fluid front line.
I don't think any unit should be able to load on rail, move, and then unload the same turn. Just takes too long, unless you want to hit them with a big CV and morale penalty.
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: bwheatley
ORIGINAL: Jalla
bwheatley,
Keep in mind that a division would need more than a train to move, more like 50 for a full strength infantry division and at least 300 for an armoured division. [;)]
A division should be able to detrain and fight in about a day or two if the railroad is able to deliver all the trains to a general area within a day or so. Detraining a single train should take no more than a few hours at the most.
Cool so it sounds possible then to de-train and ready to fight within a week?
Very possible. The French did it with a vengeance in 1914. Should be quite possible for other major European powers in the 1940s.
- karonagames
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
I think there should be a 1 turn after unload pause before they can move, and they will have 1/2 CV that turn. So say turn 1 rail. Turn 2 unload, 1/2 CV during pause, then on 3rd turn they are at normal everything. The 1/2 CV will make people stop and think before railing right up to the front line. Especially with a very fluid front line.
This would undermine the Axis need to send Fire- brigades to threatened sectors of the front, particularly in 1943 onwards. I am having a hard enough job holding Flavio as it is. If I lost the current quick response, he will be in Berlin much sooner!!!
It's only a Game
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
The French did it in France they did not rail troops across hundreds of miles.
I don't object to the current strategic movement per se, but I do agree that it's somehow odd that you can pick up a unit in Dothexgrad, Russian SFSR, move it to the front and drop the unit there in one turn (or move it from Dothexstadt, Germany, to a place in Byelorussia, the Ukraine or Lithuania) without the unit losing combat effectiveness even temporarily.
The oddest thing about that is that rail movement causes little fatique, so if you rail a unit a substantial distance and drop it somewhere hundreds of miles away, it might have less fatique than a unit moving to the hex from 5 to 10 hexes away.
Of course, rail transport over significant distances still takes two to three weeks and might actually be slower than some priority movements in the actual war.
I don't object to the current strategic movement per se, but I do agree that it's somehow odd that you can pick up a unit in Dothexgrad, Russian SFSR, move it to the front and drop the unit there in one turn (or move it from Dothexstadt, Germany, to a place in Byelorussia, the Ukraine or Lithuania) without the unit losing combat effectiveness even temporarily.
The oddest thing about that is that rail movement causes little fatique, so if you rail a unit a substantial distance and drop it somewhere hundreds of miles away, it might have less fatique than a unit moving to the hex from 5 to 10 hexes away.
Of course, rail transport over significant distances still takes two to three weeks and might actually be slower than some priority movements in the actual war.
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
The French did it in France they did not rail troops across hundreds of miles.
I don't object to the current strategic movement per se, but I do agree that it's somehow odd that you can pick up a unit in Dothexgrad, Russian SFSR, move it to the front and drop the unit there in one turn (or move it from Dothexstadt, Germany, to a place in Byelorussia, the Ukraine or Lithuania) without the unit losing combat effectiveness even temporarily.
The oddest thing about that is that rail movement causes little fatique, so if you rail a unit a substantial distance and drop it somewhere hundreds of miles away, it might have less fatique than a unit moving to the hex from 5 to 10 hexes away.
Of course, rail transport over significant distances still takes two to three weeks and might actually be slower than some priority movements in the actual war.
I think early 20th century armies were designed to get maximum advantages from railroads. The French moved troops from near Switzerland to near Paris (surely 200 miles) in less than a week and went to the attack and won.
Anyway, loading and unloading are the relatively time-critical parts of a rail move. The train itself gets you hundreds of miles with relatively little trouble which is the whole point.
I agree the Soviets seem fantastically flexible, but to build in a real administrative and signal system would begin to approach a game only I would enjoy:
It seems to me the idea East Front game would be one that gave you an operational area say Riga to Leningrad -- not too big -- and then let you try out different variables in building armies for each side. For example, you could take a 1923 ideal Wehrmach just as it starts using radios on the road and put it up against a 1923 Red Army which has a pretty flexible command structure, armored trains and so on and let them fight it out at the company/battalion level in a daily orders cycle. Another interesting variation would be a ideal Red Army of 1939 with a good command structure, good signal/radio doctrine and lots of light tanks. It might do well against say a German army with less flexible command and less emphasis on radio/signal training.
For me, the less abstraction the better. In my ideal simulation, every radio message would be tracked and possibly intercepted and/or radio located by the other side. The game would focus on the army cheif-of-staff's situation: checking the radio and recon picture at 5AM. Dealing with visiting Commisars and/or STAVKA at 8AM. Getting the army commander his hang-over cure at 9AM. Sending the ARmy Commander off to help morale at some point on the front and so on. In my ideal game, as the Cheif-of-Staff, you would look at information on your maps that might be wrong and make your assessments (which might push your intelligence expectations in the wrong direction) and worry about how long it takes to get a tank brigade off the trains and fueled and assembled.
Anyway, there's a lot that gets abstracted in WitE, but I think, given the level (ie the whole front with weekly turns) there are other benefits.
Not my cup of tea. I would be more interested in an army or front level game with the player in the position of the Front or Army staff.
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
and we are not talking about detraining and then hasty attacking....Im talking about detraining and moving at max 1 hex-which is all i need...a lot of us are playing small pbem scenarios as well. I can take units from the back of the map and move them right up into the front lines to occupy forts or stick them in rough or in swamps...and they are ready to fight-and I can also rail units to 1 hex of enemy units, move another unit that was not on a train into the EZOC and take the unit detraining to either backstop that unit or if it has enough MPs, which it will sometimes, make the 1 hex move on top of its friendly and join in exerting a ZOC on the enemy unit. This is early war crap units, I dont care about attacking, with them. All I want to do is zoom a unit up to the front, detrain it, move it a hex and put its body on a panzer division, all the while taking absolutely no casualties. I could care less about a hasty or a delib. The unit I moved up, and has found its way into good defensive terrain or a fort, or stacked on a friendly,is now a problem for the enemy unit. And these "trained" units when they detrain and move, exert a full zoc-maybe we can talk about that as well. Why should a unit just off the train have as much influence on zocs, and project its own full zoc as a unit that has been in the line?
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
ORIGINAL: raizer
and we are not talking about detraining and then hasty attacking....Im talking about detraining and moving at max 1 hex-which is all i need...a lot of us are playing small pbem scenarios as well. I can take units from the back of the map and move them right up into the front lines to occupy forts or stick them in rough or in swamps...and they are ready to fight-and I can also rail units to 1 hex of enemy units, move another unit that was not on a train into the EZOC and take the unit detraining to either backstop that unit or if it has enough MPs, which it will sometimes, make the 1 hex move on top of its friendly and join in exerting a ZOC on the enemy unit. This is early war crap units, I dont care about attacking, with them. All I want to do is zoom a unit up to the front, detrain it, move it a hex and put its body on a panzer division, all the while taking absolutely no casualties. I could care less about a hasty or a delib. The unit I moved up, and has found its way into good defensive terrain or a fort, or stacked on a friendly,is now a problem for the enemy unit. And these "trained" units when they detrain and move, exert a full zoc-maybe we can talk about that as well. Why should a unit just off the train have as much influence on zocs, and project its own full zoc as a unit that has been in the line?
On the scale of a week and 10 miles and with WEGO mechanics, you could argue many ways that there's no problem with an infantry division getting off a train and exerting a zone of control. Maybe he wasn't there at all and the enemy just heard a rumor he was coming. Maybe his presence was simulated with telephone calls "accidently" made to the enemy HQ as in (drunk Russian voice) "Hello, is this the 157th infantry division? I have two trainloads of 122mm howtzer shells for you if you want to come pick it up."
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc
surely 200 miles
That would be just 20 hexes, units can move quite a bit more (up to around 800 miles) and still have a chance to detrain.
Not to mention that many of the hexes don't have large railyards or possibly even a station. Detraining heavy equipment without any kind of facilities is, at best, tricky.
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