AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

though I have no problem with the idea, this is an example of a 'gamey' strategy some people don't want the AI to emulate in other areas, generally for Axis decision points.

I can never remember to do return-to-base moves _before_ the Vichy process, a definite 'duhh' on my part.
On thing that MWIF has down cold is the sequence of play. You will not 'forget' any of the phases or subphases.

Here is the full sequence of play as separate lists. The program combines these when displaying the current 'position' in the sequence of play.

For example, the upper left list is always shown. If you are in the Naval 'stage' then the list beginning "Port Attacks" is shown alongside of it. If the phasing side has selected a naval combat, then the longest list (for naval combat, starting with Select Sea Area) is shown yet farther to the right. And if you are engaged in an air-to-air combat as part of a naval air combat, then that list (starts with Select Location) is shown on the far right. If the Defender has just rolled the dice (random number) then a flag for the defender's major power is shwon to the right of the item "Defender Rolls".

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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Palle »

I am too lazy to read through all posts. But has the "Japan First" Strategy for CW been discussed. Under certain circumstances I was a proponent of that on the mailing list some years ago, but I remember little these days- not having played since 2002 :-(
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Palle

I am too lazy to read through all posts. But has the "Japan First" Strategy for CW been discussed. Under certain circumstances I was a proponent of that on the mailing list some years ago, but I remember little these days- not having played since 2002 :-(
Welcome to the forum![:)]

I would need more details to answer your question. What do you mean by "Japan First"?
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Palle »

Thanks Shannon, and thanks for trying to create the version of WiF I have waited for since The Annual 1996...
Played WiF since a teen in 1987 and very active on the mailing list(s) 1998-2002. Nice to see Patrice on the Team, but I do miss some of the old hands here. Some of the oldies from the list were real WiF strategical geniuses and there was so much interesting strategy debate on the old list that someone should read, digest and use here for the AI etc...

Anyway, I looked through the old posts; the Japan First is a strategy first proposed by Geir Aaslid and sparked a lot of debate, the best link to part of the discussion is here. Basically it entails China surrendering early to put some chits in the US Entry pool, then CW port striking Japan's carrier fleet on surprise impulse or taking out their convoys.


Edited to add, I think the conclusion was that only in rare circumstances is it worth it in chit hit and setbacks in Europe (I did it once to take pressure off a collapsing China as germany was building full-out for USSR).
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by composer99 »

There has been some discussion on resisting Sealion from the CW PoV; I think we need to go more in-depth on how the AIO will determine if a German attack is coming and if so, how strong it thinks it will be and what to do about it.

An analysis like the excellent one someone did in the Italian AI thread about defending Italy would be good; ideally we should come up with a series of points that can easily be turned into AIO scripts.

If I get the time this weekend (I have a score to urgently finish writing and an NHL playoff game to catch on Saturday) I will surely attempt some of this.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by composer99 »

Signs of an upcoming Sealion

The CW AIO should keep an eye out for these signs during the first 6 turns of the game.

German/Italian Production
- Starting amphibs
- More importantly, finishing amphibs (many Axis sides start amphibs just to make the CW nervous)
- Starting/finishing transport units
- Building out NAVs (including the Condors)
- Building out twin-engine fighters
- Building Marine and Paratrooper units (corps & divs)
- Finishing naval units (especially German units) in the Construction/Repair pools
- Lack of Barbarossa-type builds

The more the CW AIO sees of this kind of behaviour, the more seriously it should take the notion that an invasion of the UK, whether in Jul/Aug or Sept/Oct 1940, or in spring/summer 1941. Early Marine builds (1939 or JF40) are a big red flag for a 1940 invasion.

Also note that I do not include submarine builds by the Axis in the above list. Axis sides routinely build subs to fight CW convoys no matter what their overall strategy is, so sub builds are not a strong sign of Sealion activity, even if they are unusually heavy.

German/Italian Activity
- Italian ships snuck through the Straits of Gibraltar while Italy is neutral and rebased to Germany after an It DoW. Usually just 1 or both transports due to range requirements.
- France First-syle campaigns (getting the airbases next to UK and the naval access to Bay of Biscay early is gold for 1940 Sealions or just to strangle CW production in preparation for a 1941 campaign).
- If Italy did not commit sealift to the Atlantic, an aggressive Egyptian campaign whose job it is to suck CW reinforcements away from the UK is often in the works. Especially if Germans land.
- Aggressive strategic air raids against the UK.
- Germany is particularly protective of sealift.

The more of these activities the Axis get up to, in combination with their production, the more certain the CW can be that a Sealion is coming.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: composer99

Signs of an upcoming Sealion

The CW AIO should keep an eye out for these signs during the first 6 turns of the game.

German/Italian Production
- Starting amphibs
- More importantly, finishing amphibs (many Axis sides start amphibs just to make the CW nervous)
- Starting/finishing transport units
- Building out NAVs (including the Condors)
- Building out twin-engine fighters
- Building Marine and Paratrooper units (corps & divs)
- Finishing naval units (especially German units) in the Construction/Repair pools
- Lack of Barbarossa-type builds

The more the CW AIO sees of this kind of behaviour, the more seriously it should take the notion that an invasion of the UK, whether in Jul/Aug or Sept/Oct 1940, or in spring/summer 1941. Early Marine builds (1939 or JF40) are a big red flag for a 1940 invasion.

Also note that I do not include submarine builds by the Axis in the above list. Axis sides routinely build subs to fight CW convoys no matter what their overall strategy is, so sub builds are not a strong sign of Sealion activity, even if they are unusually heavy.

German/Italian Activity
- Italian ships snuck through the Straits of Gibraltar while Italy is neutral and rebased to Germany after an It DoW. Usually just 1 or both transports due to range requirements.
- France First-syle campaigns (getting the airbases next to UK and the naval access to Bay of Biscay early is gold for 1940 Sealions or just to strangle CW production in preparation for a 1941 campaign).
- If Italy did not commit sealift to the Atlantic, an aggressive Egyptian campaign whose job it is to suck CW reinforcements away from the UK is often in the works. Especially if Germans land.
- Aggressive strategic air raids against the UK.
- Germany is particularly protective of sealift.

The more of these activities the Axis get up to, in combination with their production, the more certain the CW can be that a Sealion is coming.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by composer99 »

CW Response to Sealion - Production

Whereas the CW usually has three production priorities in a Barbarossa game - defend Med early, protect/expand convoy network, and build pointy stuff - and this set of priorities is not particularly different when the Axis is undertaking a Southern strategy, when a Sealion campaign is imminent the CW has to pretty much give up on most of its offensive production in favour of building to defend the UK.

1939 Production
- Just as starting AMPH units early is good play for the Axis to spook the CW even if they are planning a Barb, starting 1-2 AMPH early is good play for the CW. Of the offensive-style units, these take the longest, and having them in the construction pool when the tide starts to turn is crucial if the CW wants to contribute effectively once the threat to the UK is passed and it is time to campaign in the Med or northern Europe.
- The ARM/MECH corps are crucial builds. The CW has one each of these in the force pool at the start of play and should build both (usually the ARM in SO39 and the MECH in ND39 so they both arrive in MJ40).
- Other builds, as production allows, can include MOT/INF/GARR corps, convoy points, pilots, and naval bombers/cvps.

1940 Production
In no particular order:
- HQ-I Alexander
- The new ARM corps in the forcepool
- arm/mech/artillery divisions
- MOT/INF/GARR/MIL corps and divisions
- convoy points
- pilots
- 3-pt/2-pt fighters and naval bombers
- the odd repair/completing naval units
- maybe a TRS for extra shipping in 1941 (or to make good on TRS losses)
- The Indian MECH is useful for defending Egypt without sending units from the UK to do it. Also, it clears out the mech corps forcepool so there are fewer non-UK units there in 1941.

1941 Production
- HQ-A Montgomery
- Blitz corps/divs (there is an Australian MECH in the forcepool this year, but really, it's a good unit to get in 1941, too)
- Infantry-class corps/divs
- Fighters (2 & 3-pt) and 3-pt land bombers
- convoy points
- Later in the year, if the German offence is stalled, and especially once the US is in the war, the specialty units (PARA, MAR, and such) can be built out in preparation for 1942 counter-offensives.

From 1942 CW production will generally be similar to what it would be in a Barb or Med campaign game.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by composer99 »

CW Response to Sealion - Lend-Lease

There are two elements of lending that the CW should keep in mind when dealing with a Sealion: lending to allies and lending from allies (usually the US).

Lending Out
- A stronger France means less requirement for a strong BEF. It also means a slower German campaign, which (hopefully) precludes a 1940 invasion of England.
- Usually, lending resources to China can be accomplished with little pain to the CW while the Burma Road is open and the US has passed the appropriate option.
- Lending spare resources to the USSR can also usually be accomplished with little effort once the US passes the appropriate option. Giving the USSR a boost is good as a stronger USSR means a weaker Sealion.

Lending In
The CW should press the US for the following options ASAP:
- Resources to W. Allies - US resources/oil to CW means it can close down overseas routes to Africa/India and focus its convoy defences along the main pipeline
- Destroyers to CW - the free bps for SCS units is invaluable as there often won't be many to spare for naval builds with all the land/air units being built
- Lend-Lease to W. Allies - the CW should ask for all the bps the US can lend (I believe the limit is 5 until the US is in the war), especially if it needs to repair factories or is behind on key unit builds.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by brian brian »

the first and simplest thing the CW can do to defend against a Sea Lion is to keep the at-start MECH in the UK unless a very compelling reason appears not to do so.

I like to loan the max to France for the first few turns to build up their own AT assets (MECH, AT-guns) in hopes of the Germans bouncing on a critical attack in front of the Somme somewhere.


I like a 1940 Sea Lion as the Germans, makes for a fun game. One place where I could see MWiF some day implementing some Fog-of-War action would be in the production system. With the transparent system it's too easy for the CW to see that coming.

"(many Axis sides start amphibs just to make the CW nervous)' YES. I do like to perhaps finish an Italian one for maybe a high-risk, high-return crack at Gibraltar.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Orm »

I am making a "standard" convoy placement for CW for the Lebensraum (begins may/jun 41) campaign. With this placement the CW has full production and 15 convoy points in reserve. The convoy points in the Mediterranian is mostly there for supply purposes but they are also used to transport a resource from Cyprus as well. The oil from NEI is transported to India and the oil from Persia is transported to either Egypt or India.

Limited oversees supply and oil rules are asumed to be in play.

I would be pleased with comments and suggestions to improve the convoy placement. Even more pleased with an alternative routing with an explanation to why that one is to be prefered. Remember to explain it so someone as thickheaded as me can understand it. [:)]

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Edit: CW has 82 convoy points in the campaign.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Extraneous »

Are you using this option?
Option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, Canada, India and South Africa where no resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, reduce the number of resources that did reach a useable factory in Great Britain this turn by two (minimum 0). The Commonwealth player chooses which resources are lost.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Are you using this option?
Option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, Canada, India and South Africa where no resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, reduce the number of resources that did reach a useable factory in Great Britain this turn by two (minimum 0). The Commonwealth player chooses which resources are lost.
The idea is to have a default setup of all the naval units at the start of the game - for each scenario, for each major power. This is to give the player a better starting point than simply presenting him with a blank slate (although that is available if he prefers). So, while many optional rules are in effect, the more esoteric ones (e.g., oil convoys and Food in Flames) are not for Orm's present purposes.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: Orm

I am making a "standard" convoy placement for CW for the Lebensraum (begins may/jun 41) campaign. With this placement the CW has full production and 15 convoy points in reserve. The convoy points in the Mediterranian is mostly there for supply purposes but they are also used to transport a resource from Cyprus as well. The oil from NEI is transported to India and the oil from Persia is transported to either Egypt or India.

Limited oversees supply and oil rules are asumed to be in play.

I would be pleased with comments and suggestions to improve the convoy placement. Even more pleased with an alternative routing with an explanation to why that one is to be prefered. Remember to explain it so someone as thickheaded as me can understand it. [:)]

Edit: CW has 82 convoy points in the campaign.

Where have you placed your tankers?
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Orm

I am making a "standard" convoy placement for CW for the Lebensraum (begins may/jun 41) campaign. With this placement the CW has full production and 15 convoy points in reserve. The convoy points in the Mediterranian is mostly there for supply purposes but they are also used to transport a resource from Cyprus as well. The oil from NEI is transported to India and the oil from Persia is transported to either Egypt or India.

Limited oversees supply and oil rules are asumed to be in play.

I would be pleased with comments and suggestions to improve the convoy placement. Even more pleased with an alternative routing with an explanation to why that one is to be prefered. Remember to explain it so someone as thickheaded as me can understand it. [:)]

Edit: CW has 82 convoy points in the campaign.

Where have you placed your tankers?
There are no tankers placed. Oil rules does not automatically include the use of tankers. I should have been more clear on what options are in play. This game has the MWIF standard options except that the option "2d10 land CRT" is off and that the option "blitz bonus" is on. See the picture for what options that are on in the game I am creating a setup for.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Extraneous »

24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
France lies prostrate. The Commonwealth is bloodied but unbowed. Germany is ready to unleash Operation Barbarossa against the unsuspecting Soviets. This game starts with the second phase of Germany’s offensive ~ the attack on the USSR.
First turn: May/Jun, 1941
No. of turns: 26
Maps used: All
Initiative: Axis +1 box. The Axis starts with the initiative.
Last weather modifier: Nil.
War status:
The USA and the USSR are neutral.
China and Japan are at war with each other.
The Commonwealth and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy.
Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.
The USSR and Germany have a neutrality pact made in 1939.
The USSR and Japan have a neutrality pact made in 1941.

5.1 Trade agreements

Netherlands East Indies (NEI)
The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry option 31 Oil embargo).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

Persia
A neutral Persia must supply the Commonwealth with 1 of its oil resources each turn.

Venezuela
A neutral Venezuela must supply the CW with half its oil and the USA with its remaining oil each turn.



Factories, Oil, and Resources

Africa
1 resource in N'dola, North Rhodesia (CW)
2 resources in South Africa (CW)

Asia
1 oil in Burma (CW)

Australia
Melbourne, Australia (Red Factory)
1 resource in Newcastle, Australia (CW)
2 resources in Australia (CW)

Canada
Canada, Montreal (CW) (Red Factory)
Canada, Toronto (CW) (Blue Factory)
Canada (CW) (1x oil, 5x resources)

India
Calcutta, India (Red Factory)
Bombay, India (Blue Factory)
4 resources in India (CW)

Malaya
2 resources in Malaya (CW)

Mediterranean
1 resource in Cyprus (CW)

South America
1 resource in Georgetown, British Guyana (CW)

Great Britain

Northern Ireland
Belfast, Northern Ireland (CW) (Blue Factory)

England
Birmingham, England (CW) (Red Factory)
Birmingham, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Coventry, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Hull, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Leeds, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Liverpool, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
London, England (CW) (Red Factory)
London, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
London, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Manchester, England (CW) (Red Factory)
Manchester, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Newcastle, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Sheffield, England (CW) (Blue Factory)
Southampton, England (CW) (Blue Factory)

Cardiff, England (CW) (1x resource)
Coventry, England (CW) (1x resource)

Scotland
Glasgow, Scotland (CW) (Red Factory)
Glasgow, Scotland (CW) (Blue Factory)

It is very difficult to offer assistance without knowing where your convoy lines start, what they are carrying, and where they are going.

Is there a reason for 5x CP off Angola?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by paulderynck »

The big problem for the CW is getting resources to the UK. They have 17 factories there and only 2 resources. Somehow, every turn the Allies need to have 15 convoys in sea zones adajcent to the UK and then extending back from there in sufficient denominations to gather up the resources that are overseas. The 5 by Angola is a very standard deployment which is necessary to allow 1 Indian resource to come around the Cape and join up with the 3 CW and 1 Belgian resource available from Africa. From there they get sent through the convoy chain north to the UK.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by composer99 »

Usually by 1941 you will want your convoys coming to UK through Faeroes' Gap (although that would depend on the German sub fleet in this scenario) because German naval & naval air can easily project into Bay of Biscay.

The set-up shown has 1 major convoy sea area (the most important one) adjacent to Axis naval power (in France) and two major convoy areas (N. Atlantic and Cape St. Vincent) not far away.

So at the very least I would have the resources coming from the Americas (including British Guyana and Trinidad/Tobago) routed there. It's convoy intensive but if you can ship the African resources along the North American route and across the North Atlantic you are also reducing the number of convoy zones near Axis naval power (since you would hypothetically need only one cp in Bay of Biscay & Cape St. Vincent for supply/Cypriot resources), which requires fewer resources to defend (or allows greater concentration of defensive power).

So I think that would be a good alternative for a setup. But I would verify the Axis submarine count first; unlike a 1939 Global War scenario they're about to start the war with the USSR and may not have the impulse calls to run a decent Battle of the Atlantic (or be willing to invest the production in building up their subs/naval air - by the time they arrive the US is pitching in).
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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: composer99

Usually by 1941 you will want your convoys coming to UK through Faeroes' Gap (although that would depend on the German sub fleet in this scenario) because German naval & naval air can easily project into Bay of Biscay.

The set-up shown has 1 major convoy sea area (the most important one) adjacent to Axis naval power (in France) and two major convoy areas (N. Atlantic and Cape St. Vincent) not far away.

So at the very least I would have the resources coming from the Americas (including British Guyana and Trinidad/Tobago) routed there. It's convoy intensive but if you can ship the African resources along the North American route and across the North Atlantic you are also reducing the number of convoy zones near Axis naval power (since you would hypothetically need only one cp in Bay of Biscay & Cape St. Vincent for supply/Cypriot resources), which requires fewer resources to defend (or allows greater concentration of defensive power).

So I think that would be a good alternative for a setup. But I would verify the Axis submarine count first; unlike a 1939 Global War scenario they're about to start the war with the USSR and may not have the impulse calls to run a decent Battle of the Atlantic (or be willing to invest the production in building up their subs/naval air - by the time they arrive the US is pitching in).
Germany, in Lebensraum campaign, are setting up prepared for an attack on USSR. All their HQs are placed on the eastern front except Rommel that is in Libya. None of their naval bombers set up in France. Italy has 2 HQs that can be placed almost anywhere. But since they are placed before CW sets up you can probably be wary if one of them sets up in France on the Atlantic coast. If they do not Germany needs sea supply to have the Atlantic ports in supply and that makes it less likely for a battle of the atlantic. Axis can of course rail a HQ to France but that gives you one impulse to prepare.

The huge downside is that Germany can put its entire fleet in one of the Atlantic ports.

When I did this setup I asumed that Italy set up both their HQs in the Mediterranian area.

First I set up the CW convoys similar to what you suggested but I felt that the reserves of convoy points got to low. Anyway. If you feel that this is to dangerous for the CW I will change the setup. How many convoy points do you think is a reasonable reserve?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

Post by Ullern »

ORIGINAL: composer99

Usually by 1941 you will want your convoys coming to UK through Faeroes' Gap (although that would depend on the German sub fleet in this scenario) because German naval & naval air can easily project into Bay of Biscay.

The set-up shown has 1 major convoy sea area (the most important one) adjacent to Axis naval power (in France) and two major convoy areas (N. Atlantic and Cape St. Vincent) not far away.

So at the very least I would have the resources coming from the Americas (including British Guyana and Trinidad/Tobago) routed there. It's convoy intensive but if you can ship the African resources along the North American route and across the North Atlantic you are also reducing the number of convoy zones near Axis naval power (since you would hypothetically need only one cp in Bay of Biscay & Cape St. Vincent for supply/Cypriot resources), which requires fewer resources to defend (or allows greater concentration of defensive power).

So I think that would be a good alternative for a setup. But I would verify the Axis submarine count first; unlike a 1939 Global War scenario they're about to start the war with the USSR and may not have the impulse calls to run a decent Battle of the Atlantic (or be willing to invest the production in building up their subs/naval air - by the time they arrive the US is pitching in).

If you have to send all resources through Faroes Gap that's very expensive in convoy points. And out in the Atlantic Areas you won't be able to defend your CP with land based air in the same manner. So fair enough the Axis subs will be in one Sea Section lower, but the resources from Africa or India will have to travel through one more Sea Area with sub threat. Defending 3 to 5 convoys in Biscay with LBA should be easy and highly desirable. (A good hint: Those 2 cost NAVs are actually better than those 3 cost NAV cause surprise matters very little if you base your defence solely on LBA.)

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