Here come the Rebels! (Canoe v. Q-Ball)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Moose dude-'twas the same as it has ever been, young scion. Noobs come in, noobs go out. 'Tis the same since days of yore. Were it not for my years of forum lurking and following these discussions, I'd be in much the same position. What seems like simple questions or lazy posters is often just shellshocked noobs not sure where to turn next.

A certain Jap martian fanboy that I am involved in a 2x2 PBEM has also gone over to WiTE, I've noticed. I can't tell if it's affected gameplay yet, but I am concerned, as are others for their PBEM partners...

Full disclosure: although Bwink has only been here since 2009, he had another name in WITP days, back to 2005. And he lurked before that.

A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

I spent over two hours on the WitE forum yesterday, and depite not having it, or having read the manual, I find myself wanting both. If I could afford it right now I'd get it. The appeal is far different than with AE, and I don't know as much about the theater, and I don't like counters. But the allure of a new, deep experience is there. I know if I play another AE game--AI or PBEM--the same phases will happen, over the same terrain, with the same reinforcement schedules, etc, etc. It's still fun, but I can see where folks who've played AE more intensely than I have might be looking for a new challenge and a new group of forum mates.

An aside: It might be possible that WitE has hit that sweet spot that WITP/AE overshoots between deep and engrossing, and short enough to play in a decent time span and see the end game. I think people just get tired of playing 1942 over and over and then having their game dry up or the opponent get busy, have a kid, die . . .

[Captain Cruft]

I'm not a newbie, and can remember playing UV, which I bought in a shop out of curiousity.

WitE appeals to me greatly, but I have deliberately not bought it because I know I just don't have the time for two games which take over my life. Unless you're retired or unemployed you can only do justice to one or the other.

FWIW I would be prepared to take this on this game. Though having read this AAR might make that a bit tricky ...

[Canoerebel]

I don't think WitE is going to have a really long shelf life since it's a two dimensional game. There are just so many ways to attack east in 41/42 and to attack west in 43/44/45. I also think that once you hit late '42, the game boggs down and becomes rather a drudge, at least for the Germans. So I agree with Chickenlad - once the new wears off I expect the following to decline.

In a way, I hope that's the case, because I'd really like to have my opponent back.

On the other hand, I really want a game like WitE to succeed, because I'd like to see more games like that in the future.

I am really put out with players who abandon or nearly abandon games that they committed to. I know it's just one of those things, but it's also very inconsiderate. And when you add to that a failure to have the common courtesy of communicating, well, it can be infurating.

Ah well, I've said my piece and had better hold my peace at this point.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Unless you're retired or unemployed you can only do justice to one or the other.

So you're saying I have no excuse? [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think WitE is going to have a really long shelf life since it's a two dimensional game. There are just so many ways to attack east in 41/42 and to attack west in 43/44/45. I also think that once you hit late '42, the game boggs down and becomes rather a drudge, at least for the Germans. So I agree with Chickenlad - once the new wears off I expect the following to decline.

In a way, I hope that's the case, because I'd really like to have my opponent back.

On the other hand, I really want a game like WitE to succeed, because I'd like to see more games like that in the future.

I am really put out with players who abandon or nearly abandon games that they committed to. I know it's just one of those things, but it's also very inconsiderate. And when you add to that a failure to have the common courtesy of communicating, well, it can be infurating.

Ah well, I've said my piece and had better hold my peace at this point.

I agree with you in the main. However, reading the forum I see a whole new level of subject matter craziness over there. I would not be able to participate at my level of knowledge, and so far (it's early) it's all business, all the time. None of the jocular foolishness that makes this forum as much a corner bar as a game place.

On the flip side, WitE shipped with some very good, varying-size scenarios. So did AE, but I think the overall structure of WitE makes scenarios easier. My sense is it goes micro a lot more easily than AE, in part because it's land-only, and the continental map is easier to slice and dice than ours.

The GC length also makes it more approachable for newbies since you can re-start several times and not lose 3-6 months of real life floundering around. There are already completed GCs against the AI in the forum, and some PBEM games are well along.

From what I read it has an excellent, well-wrought tutorial. Despite lots of good intent, AE never got its out. Telling newbies to play Coral Sea and Guad isn't the same thing. The tutorial in WITP helped me a lot. I hear WitE's is better.

I too hope it sells thousands and thousands of units, and funds Matrix to the point they can recruit a paid team of devs to do WITP2, with a good GUI and a new AI system.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Moose dude-'twas the same as it has ever been, young scion. Noobs come in, noobs go out. 'Tis the same since days of yore. Were it not for my years of forum lurking and following these discussions, I'd be in much the same position. What seems like simple questions or lazy posters is often just shellshocked noobs not sure where to turn next.

A certain Jap martian fanboy that I am involved in a 2x2 PBEM has also gone over to WiTE, I've noticed. I can't tell if it's affected gameplay yet, but I am concerned, as are others for their PBEM partners...

Full disclosure: although Bwink has only been here since 2009, he had another name in WITP days, back to 2005. And he lurked before that.

A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

I spent over two hours on the WitE forum yesterday, and depite not having it, or having read the manual, I find myself wanting both. If I could afford it right now I'd get it. The appeal is far different than with AE, and I don't know as much about the theater, and I don't like counters. But the allure of a new, deep experience is there. I know if I play another AE game--AI or PBEM--the same phases will happen, over the same terrain, with the same reinforcement schedules, etc, etc. It's still fun, but I can see where folks who've played AE more intensely than I have might be looking for a new challenge and a new group of forum mates.

An aside: It might be possible that WitE has hit that sweet spot that WITP/AE overshoots between deep and engrossing, and short enough to play in a decent time span and see the end game. I think people just get tired of playing 1942 over and over and then having their game dry up or the opponent get busy, have a kid, die . . .

Wow, there is a lot of truth in that post Mr. Moose. I think you nailed some things right on the head. Even though AE is relatively new, the PTO has been worked and reworked by a lot of titles. There are only so many ways to skin a cat so they say. Perhaps that is the reason why some people are attracted to the alternative history mods like RA. At least those mods add some new stuff to add some spice.

I hope you are correct as far as our wayward brethren returning. As you pointed out, WiTE has far less room for alternative strategies than the PTO offers. Certainly there is some room to try to rewrite history but nothing like we have in AE. I miean you got your Mersing Gambit, Palembang Gambit, Split KB on turn 1, India Gambit, Oz Gambit, NZ Gambit, SoPac Gambit (my game has that one) for the Japan side and Timor Axis, Solomon Axis, Sumatra Axis, Kuriles Axis, CentPac axis, etc for the Allies. Just a lot more variables to deal with in AE

[Captain Cruft]

Don't under-estimate the sheer "romance" that a lot of people attach to the Eastern Front, myself included.

Why this happens I don't know. It wasn't really a very romantic experience for anyone, more like hell on earth. It could be the sexy tanks perhaps?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I hope you are correct as far as our wayward brethren returning. As you pointed out, WiTE has far less room for alternative strategies than the PTO offers. Certainly there is some room to try to rewrite history but nothing like we have in AE. I miean you got your Mersing Gambit, Palembang Gambit, Split KB on turn 1, India Gambit, Oz Gambit, NZ Gambit, SoPac Gambit (my game has that one) for the Japan side and Timor Axis, Solomon Axis, Sumatra Axis, Kuriles Axis, CentPac axis, etc for the Allies. Just a lot more variables to deal with in AE

Very true. The AE canvas is huge. Larger than any other in world history.

One cutionary note, however. There's a current thread over there about whether both sides can win, in a real, non-VP, sense. The consensus seems to be yes, at least a minor victory is possible for the Germans with evenly-matched opponents. Possibly a major too. That is a huge advantage over AE and the Japanese player's psychic position. It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

[Cribtop]

The allure of the Ostfront is mostly the sexy tanks, with a side dish of the perverse allure of the sheer ferocity of the war between two brutal dictatorships, IMHO.

I hope I'm one of the better newbs. My fear is that I'm having trouble sustaining a game with two different opponents now (so I feel your pain CR) and I really hope I can get a PBEM going that lasts, 'cause I love this game!

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Very true. The AE canvas is huge. Larger than any other in world history.

One cutionary note, however. There's a current thread over there about whether both sides can win, in a real, non-VP, sense. The consensus seems to be yes, at least a minor victory is possible for the Germans with evenly-matched opponents. Possibly a major too. That is a huge advantage over AE and the Japanese player's psychic position. It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

I have given some thought to your last point. While few would argue that no matter how you play it, Japan was going to lose WWII in the the PTO, does that necessarily mean that Japan has to lose the game? Perhaps, we need to take the Capt. James T. Kirk Kobiashi Maru approach. Couldn't beat the scenario so he changed the parameters.

Up to this point, the only real chance the Japan players has to win is by AV on 1/1/43 or shortly thereafter. The OOB and time basically make any hope of getting it after that highly unlikely against a capable opponent. One proviso would be that I have heard a few people mention they came close on 1/1/44.

Perhaps there is a way to manipulate the base point system to change that parameter. Basically the Japanese player's only hope for victory is to either A. win a huge naval victory and/or B. seize significant territory beyond what was accomplished historically. I am saying why not alter the base points so that the Japanese player comes dangerously close to Autovictory by merely achieving the RL expansion. Then just a couple of major grabs outside of that famous red shaded map we have all seen = a win. If this was done correctly, the threat would continue all the way to the end of the war by making the central bases like the Marianas and PI worth oodles of points and far outposts worth very little. The trick would be to make it attainable but far from automatic. In my mind a game where the Japan player doesn't have to conquer all of India or Australia or take PH to have any hope of winning is a better game.

JOMHO

[JohnDillworth]

Full disclosure: although Bwink has only been here since 2009, he had another name in WITP days, back to 2005. And he lurked before that.

A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

I spent over two hours on the WitE forum yesterday, and depite not having it, or having read the manual, I find myself wanting both. If I could afford it right now I'd get it. The appeal is far different than with AE, and I don't know as much about the theater, and I don't like counters. But the allure of a new, deep experience is there. I know if I play another AE game--AI or PBEM--the same phases will happen, over the same terrain, with the same reinforcement schedules, etc, etc. It's still fun, but I can see where folks who've played AE more intensely than I have might be looking for a new challenge and a new group of forum mates.

An aside: It might be possible that WitE has hit that sweet spot that WITP/AE overshoots between deep and engrossing, and short enough to play in a decent time span and see the end game. I think people just get tired of playing 1942 over and over and then having their game dry up or the opponent get busy, have a kid, die . . .



_____________________________

The Moose

I was in Cape Breton Park in Nova Scotia once (most beautiful place on earth, I was working on a lobster boat that summer) and I drove up upon a "small" baby moose standing inconveniently in the road. I got out of the car to shew it away, and then I saw the mother moose, had taken exception to my approaching her offspring. Point is, I know what a cranky moose looks like, and you sir, are a cranky moose! [:)]

[pws1225]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

Now, now Mr. Moose, with all due respect, as a self-appointed spokesman for the noobie community, I must take exception with your generalization that the current crop of noobs are lazy, non-reading, barely-writing, non-capital-letter-using slackers. Rather, we are much like you probably were 10-15 years ago, struggling to get our arms around an immense game deep in detail and mouse clicks. We are learning a very complex game with minimal documentation. The manual is, at best, a handbook of the rules, not a "how to play the game" tutorial. It could never be that because of the complexity of the game, and we understand that. Instead, this forum is our source of that knowledge. It's much like a culture with an oral tradition where knowledge is passed on by word of mouth. While we may ask our questions unartfully, if the culture is to survive, you must try to be patient and help us learn its finer points. Without that patience, this culture will surely wither away.

Note: In deference to the Moose's sensibilities, I have attempted to spell check this missive and capitalize everything that looked important enough to warrant the effort.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

Awww....sniff...you say the nicest things. [:'(]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

I hope I'm one of the better newbs.

Seen you around here long enough that I don't think of you as new...

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: pws1225

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

Now, now Mr. Moose, with all due respect, as a self-appointed spokesman for the noobie community, I must take exception with your generalization that the current crop of noobs are lazy, non-reading, barely-writing, non-capital-letter-using slackers. Rather, we are much like you probably were 10-15 years ago, struggling to get our arms around an immense game deep in detail and mouse clicks. We are learning a very complex game with minimal documentation. The manual is, at best, a handbook of the rules, not a "how to play the game" tutorial. It could never be that because of the complexity of the game, and we understand that. Instead, this forum is our source of that knowledge. It's much like a culture with an oral tradition where knowledge is passed on by word of mouth. While we may ask our questions unartfully, if the culture is to survive, you must try to be patient and help us learn its finer points. Without that patience, this culture will surely wither away.

Note: In deference to the Moose's sensibilities, I have attempted to spell check this missive and capitalize everything that looked important enough to warrant the effort.

But back then we were all newbies, so we didnt know the difference. Now you stick out like a twin 6' turret on the Juneau!

[:'(]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Up to this point, the only real chance the Japan players has to win is by AV on 1/1/43 or shortly thereafter. The OOB and time basically make any hope of getting it after that highly unlikely against a capable opponent. One proviso would be that I have heard a few people mention they came close on 1/1/44.

I should amend my previous post to say that I beleive the WitE discussion concerns the ability of the Germans to win the war, as well as the game, while we here usually believe that between evenly-matched players the Japanese player can only hope to win the game.

I think a pair could have an HR that changed the VP's to anything they wanted. A simple Excel spreadsheet with a Top-30 bases and adjusted VPs and dates could be done pretty easily and updated monthly in the PBEM.

I also suspect (!!) that various players have been doodling around with ideas to alter the early-war balances to encourage more aggressive Allied play even when the Japanese player doesn't go for auto-vic. Some ideas would take code, while others could be done off-line.

I'm not a deep wargamer in my past, but thinking about the very popular wargame settings--Napoleonic Wars, ancient Rome, the Battle of the Bulge, D-Day, the Eastern Front, the ACW--I see a mixture of roughly equal opponents and mismatched power situations. The ACW is perhaps a pretty good analog to AE. The CSA could have won the war (and game) if they had been more hyper-aggressive in 1862 before the Union mobilized industry and began the coastal blockade and Mississippi River campaign. This, however, probably would have needed a different pre-war momentum and political realization than could have ever occurred among those star-struck idealists.

Similarly, AE's editor allows for different pre-war assumptions that could make it more likely that the Japanese could win the war. I know John 3rd's RA mod moves in this direction, but my limited understanding of that one has it more talking to weapons platforms and less re-drawing control zones by base and playing with pre-war fort levels, pre-built air bases, and the like. As AE ages I hope more tweaks and what-ifs are done by fans.

[perkinh]

I wonder if that would force the battle a little more vettim89. I have a good agressive opponent in my current game and it is very enjoyable. The "Sir Robin" tactic is just so dang annoying. I understand it as the allied player trying to save his assest, but its boring and really causes a lot of games to be dropped. I just cant see how the allied civilians would have taken it to know that there Navy, had run and wasnt protecting the West Coast.

I am a JFB, so my views will be tainted. I would just like to think that the allies may show up sometime before mid 43'. Trying to get major battle like the Coral Sea or Midway is dang near impossible unless you get the rite opponent. Maybe your suggestions would up the stakes a little, and force a little more clenching of the cheeks.

I like the Empire because i know that i am going to lose, so i have less stress. Though if there was a chance to actually win, then i might find myself a little more afraid of not screwing it up. Having a opponent that will take some chances and sink some of your carriers when you are not careful, really adds some spice.

The object is to win though, and the " Sir Robin" seems to work very well. Boring but well.

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Very true. The AE canvas is huge. Larger than any other in world history.

One cutionary note, however. There's a current thread over there about whether both sides can win, in a real, non-VP, sense. The consensus seems to be yes, at least a minor victory is possible for the Germans with evenly-matched opponents. Possibly a major too. That is a huge advantage over AE and the Japanese player's psychic position. It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

I have given some thought to your last point. While few would argue that no matter how you play it, Japan was going to lose WWII in the the PTO, does that necessarily mean that Japan has to lose the game? Perhaps, we need to take the Capt. James T. Kirk Kobiashi Maru approach. Couldn't beat the scenario so he changed the parameters.

Up to this point, the only real chance the Japan players has to win is by AV on 1/1/43 or shortly thereafter. The OOB and time basically make any hope of getting it after that highly unlikely against a capable opponent. One proviso would be that I have heard a few people mention they came close on 1/1/44.

Perhaps there is a way to manipulate the base point system to change that parameter. Basically the Japanese player's only hope for victory is to either A. win a huge naval victory and/or B. seize significant territory beyond what was accomplished historically. I am saying why not alter the base points so that the Japanese player comes dangerously close to Autovictory by merely achieving the RL expansion. Then just a couple of major grabs outside of that famous red shaded map we have all seen = a win. If this was done correctly, the threat would continue all the way to the end of the war by making the central bases like the Marianas and PI worth oodles of points and far outposts worth very little. The trick would be to make it attainable but far from automatic. In my mind a game where the Japan player doesn't have to conquer all of India or Australia or take PH to have any hope of winning is a better game.

JOMHO

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I was in Cape Breton Park in Nova Scotia once (most beautiful place on earth, I was working on a lobster boat that summer) and I drove up upon a "small" baby moose standing inconveniently in the road. I got out of the car to shew it away, and then I saw the mother moose, had taken exception to my approaching her offspring. Point is, I know what a cranky moose looks like, and you sir, are a cranky moose! [:)]

You been talking to my ex-wife? [:)]

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile. [:)]

[kfsgo]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I also suspect (!!) that various players have been doodling around with ideas to alter the early-war balances to encourage more aggressive Allied play even when the Japanese player doesn't go for auto-vic. Some ideas would take code, while others could be done off-line.

I'm not a deep wargamer in my past, but thinking about the very popular wargame setings--Napoleonic Wars, ancient Rome, the Battle of the Bulge, D-Day, the Eastern Front, the ACW--I see a mixture of roughly equal opponents and mismatched power situations. The ACW is perhaps a pretty good analog to AE. The CSA could have won the war (and game) if they had been more hyper-aggressive in 1862 before the Union mobilized industry and began the coastal blockade and Mississippi River campaign. This, however, probably would have needed a different pre-war momentum and political realization than could have ever occurred among those star-struck idealists.

Similarly, AE's editor allows for different pre-war assumptions that could make it more likely that the Japanese could win the war. I know John 3rd's RA mod moves in this direction, but my limited understanding of that one has it more talking to weapons platforms and less re-drawing control zones by base and playing with pre-war fort levels, pre-built air bases, and the like. As AE ages I hope more tweaks and what-ifs are done by fans.

In my head I've been playing with the idea of a 'randomized' scenario - randomized in the sense that a list is drawn up with (250, 500, 1000, 2000, whatever) things that might conceivably have been done differently, anywhere from 'single infantry batallion added to X location' to 'half of all carriers initially on map never even built', Y number of which then get picked off a list and committed to an individual .scen file. It'd certainly make for some tense moments in trying to figure out what you're actually up against, but it'd have the potential to mess up someone's plans something fierce, particularly for the Japanese if they get a bad initial hand, so I'm not sure anyone'd play it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Now, now Mr. Moose, with all due respect, as a self-appointed spokesman for the noobie community, I must take exception with your generalization that the current crop of noobs are lazy, non-reading, barely-writing, non-capital-letter-using slackers. Rather, we are much like you probably were 10-15 years ago, struggling to get our arms around an immense game deep in detail and mouse clicks. We are learning a very complex game with minimal documentation. The manual is, at best, a handbook of the rules, not a "how to play the game" tutorial. It could never be that because of the complexity of the game, and we understand that. Instead, this forum is our source of that knowledge. It's much like a culture with an oral tradition where knowledge is passed on by word of mouth. While we may ask our questions unartfully, if the culture is to survive, you must try to be patient and help us learn its finer points. Without that patience, this culture will surely wither away.

Note: In deference to the Moose's sensibilities, I have attempted to spell check this missive and capitalize everything that looked important enough to warrant the effort.

And a gold star is issued to you, sir. [:)]

If you even know what an AAR is you probably aren't of whom I'm speaking. I help noobs all the time. Pretty often I also get something wrong and I get corrected myself. I'm at the first-in-first-out place in my AE knowledge. I hated Financial Accounting class. But every new thing I learn, an angel loses his wings. Some factoid about the game leaks away.

However, go read the main forum for a couple of pages and count how many posts are by folks who, unlike yourself, have not cracked the manual. Are they all under 30-YO? I don't know, but evidence I see through the school teacher I live with suggests to me that the self-help ethic is not as strong in our younger generation of scholars and scribes as it once may have been. I don't mind helping where I can, but I don't care to be a helicopter AE "parent."

I just hope the ratio doesn't swing too far as WitE works its will.