And I have saves for every turn from turn 18 to now if the Devs or anyone wants to look at them for what ever reason.
Some huge issues are the TOE upgrades which gutted my experience levels. This has been found and tested. The swamp bonus has been found, Russian manpower hopefully has been toned down.
This is just painful. He is getting exp out the whazoo right now while I am shattering my units.
GC 41 2ndAcr (G) vs Kelblau (S) No Kelblau
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: June 42
Kudos to the opponent for coming up with a pretty good strat when everyone was pretty much laughing at him for not attacking. It certainly seems effective for now and clearly there has been a method to his madness.
Some questions would be have you played with your ToE settings at all? (ramp up the guys in the attack zones and tone down the guys in more quiet sectors). Anything new you could be using support unit wise to help you with this? Have guys in the attack zones on refit and anyone else not on refit? Perhaps the attack was launched a bit too early before the German units had recovered fully (remember that Blue did not start until mid to late June for the most part and really did not swing into action until July).
What is the status of the Luftwaffe and is there any extra support they could be giving? What is he doing with the Red Airforce at this point?
Just trying to make sure nothing has been left out because the most sincere form of flattery is going to be following in his footsteps with this strat until someone figures out how to make a person using this strat pay for doing it. (or they change the game, which is also likely to happen).
Some questions would be have you played with your ToE settings at all? (ramp up the guys in the attack zones and tone down the guys in more quiet sectors). Anything new you could be using support unit wise to help you with this? Have guys in the attack zones on refit and anyone else not on refit? Perhaps the attack was launched a bit too early before the German units had recovered fully (remember that Blue did not start until mid to late June for the most part and really did not swing into action until July).
What is the status of the Luftwaffe and is there any extra support they could be giving? What is he doing with the Red Airforce at this point?
Just trying to make sure nothing has been left out because the most sincere form of flattery is going to be following in his footsteps with this strat until someone figures out how to make a person using this strat pay for doing it. (or they change the game, which is also likely to happen).
RE: June 42
This is a carpet defense to the extreme.
RE: June 42
Something else to consider that I think could make him pay for this strat (but would be very boring for especially the Germans long term) would be the Germans more or less adopt the same idea.
I don't mean to hi-jack the AAR, but clearly this is a new wrinkle that players have not seen or considered and it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.
First off, sort of review the situation, etc. Because the Soviets did not attack during the winter, the Germans (and Soviets) did not face a lot of combat attrition. The Germans took their normal beating from the blizzard, but I think anyone seeing this in the future will be better prepared for it and move every unit he can into towns, regardless of how the front shapes up. Also as a result, the Soviets have far fewer guards units because they just don't have the victories that winter brings with it. They also did not have the opportunity to improve their mid grade generals stats, so their command depth did not improve. So we have a very large, but very regular Soviet army. The only thing giving his guys a bump beyond his Guards units are his shock armies and it is not like he has a pile of those.
So now, here comes Hermann's legions after a rough winter and even tho they are gassed up, etc this pretty much winds up a lot like Kursk where the Russians stand on the defensive, let the Germans exhaust themselves and then launch their counter attacks. In the mean time, their general skill issues and lack of guard units are getting fixed because their guys are earning it sitting on the defensive against multiple German attacks.
I think you strongly consider ceasing offensive operations and fall back and dig in. Dig deep, dig as far back as he gives you time. Multiple lines of level 4 forts. Essentially the same thing he is doing to you, except of course, you can't occupy all that at once, but you have fall back positions so that even if he kicks you off a line, you have more level 4 forts to fall back on.
Now here is where the rub is. This game has a long, long way to go, but the fact is if it ends right now, you win. At some point if he wants to win the game, he has to come out of his holes and advance to you. As soon as he comes out of the holes, you have got him in the open with a nice strong army that didn't break its teeth trying to grind away at his fortifications. In addition, since he has so few guards units and his generals have not skilled up, he isn't so hot on the attack. At this point, you get a chance to take him to school and cause him the losses you are looking to cause. Even if he comes up against your line, he is going to take horrific casualties trying to dig fairly good German divisions out of level 4 fortifications, especially if they are in nasty terrain of your choosing and you get a chance to limit as many attacks to two hexes as possible. It may make for a boring game, but I think it gives you a better chance than what lies ahead as it is now.
Sorry for the book. [;)]
I don't mean to hi-jack the AAR, but clearly this is a new wrinkle that players have not seen or considered and it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.
First off, sort of review the situation, etc. Because the Soviets did not attack during the winter, the Germans (and Soviets) did not face a lot of combat attrition. The Germans took their normal beating from the blizzard, but I think anyone seeing this in the future will be better prepared for it and move every unit he can into towns, regardless of how the front shapes up. Also as a result, the Soviets have far fewer guards units because they just don't have the victories that winter brings with it. They also did not have the opportunity to improve their mid grade generals stats, so their command depth did not improve. So we have a very large, but very regular Soviet army. The only thing giving his guys a bump beyond his Guards units are his shock armies and it is not like he has a pile of those.
So now, here comes Hermann's legions after a rough winter and even tho they are gassed up, etc this pretty much winds up a lot like Kursk where the Russians stand on the defensive, let the Germans exhaust themselves and then launch their counter attacks. In the mean time, their general skill issues and lack of guard units are getting fixed because their guys are earning it sitting on the defensive against multiple German attacks.
I think you strongly consider ceasing offensive operations and fall back and dig in. Dig deep, dig as far back as he gives you time. Multiple lines of level 4 forts. Essentially the same thing he is doing to you, except of course, you can't occupy all that at once, but you have fall back positions so that even if he kicks you off a line, you have more level 4 forts to fall back on.
Now here is where the rub is. This game has a long, long way to go, but the fact is if it ends right now, you win. At some point if he wants to win the game, he has to come out of his holes and advance to you. As soon as he comes out of the holes, you have got him in the open with a nice strong army that didn't break its teeth trying to grind away at his fortifications. In addition, since he has so few guards units and his generals have not skilled up, he isn't so hot on the attack. At this point, you get a chance to take him to school and cause him the losses you are looking to cause. Even if he comes up against your line, he is going to take horrific casualties trying to dig fairly good German divisions out of level 4 fortifications, especially if they are in nasty terrain of your choosing and you get a chance to limit as many attacks to two hexes as possible. It may make for a boring game, but I think it gives you a better chance than what lies ahead as it is now.
Sorry for the book. [;)]
RE: June 42
I have stripped every pioneer from every other front, they were allocated to 2 per assault div in 17th Army and 4th Army. That did not work.
I have the assault troops on refit. Infantry anyway. But they don't muster enough teeth to get anywhere. I am stretched to basically single div frontage from the Estonian coast all the way to Smolensk. So that I could mass here. He has shifted a lot of troops here. Recon shows triple stack along my entire front from Smolensk north, but I don't have the strength to even dent his line.
All assault div were at 95% strength upon start of offensive ops. Exp was in the crapper due to winter and TOE upgrade bug. Most of my infantry were at 50 exp or so. Down from 80+ before winter.
German air force is on the scene. Not that it helps much. I have not moved AGN or the northern AGC air force because I need that to offset my weak line up there.
But yes, I think this is the most foolproof defense any Russian can use. I just get weaker each year. Whether I pulled back to Germany now or not, my TOE will shrink per real history, even though I don't suffer the same losses. We will see what happens, if I break out, it might hurt him bad. Just hope my poor panzers can take the beating they are.
I have the assault troops on refit. Infantry anyway. But they don't muster enough teeth to get anywhere. I am stretched to basically single div frontage from the Estonian coast all the way to Smolensk. So that I could mass here. He has shifted a lot of troops here. Recon shows triple stack along my entire front from Smolensk north, but I don't have the strength to even dent his line.
All assault div were at 95% strength upon start of offensive ops. Exp was in the crapper due to winter and TOE upgrade bug. Most of my infantry were at 50 exp or so. Down from 80+ before winter.
German air force is on the scene. Not that it helps much. I have not moved AGN or the northern AGC air force because I need that to offset my weak line up there.
But yes, I think this is the most foolproof defense any Russian can use. I just get weaker each year. Whether I pulled back to Germany now or not, my TOE will shrink per real history, even though I don't suffer the same losses. We will see what happens, if I break out, it might hurt him bad. Just hope my poor panzers can take the beating they are.
RE: June 42
One final note for now (I promise!): The German strat I just outlined is not without historical background and was in fact recommended by several Generals to Hitler as an alternative to Operation Blue. Halder, wanted very limited offensives aimed at straightening out the lines, setting aside reserves and continuing to rehabilitate the army in Russia before launching any major offensives. Obviously it didn't go that way and I doubt that was a viable strategy for Germany in 1942 anyway because I highly doubt they would have been in a better position to force a decision in Russian in 1943 without major mistakes on the part of the Russians. (Although if Stalin had kept up with stupid attacks like what happen in the south in the spring of 42, one never knows).
RE: June 42
No problem Klydon, shoot I am looking for answers too. Before I even started my offensive he offered to start over. I want to continue until we get Beta 3 patch and I won't get clobbered by the upgrade bug, swamps won't be mini forts all on their own etc.
Plus, if I can find out how to beat this defense with my current handicaps, and there are a bunch of them, it will work anytime anyone try's this defense again. I like a challenge, but man this is murder.
Plus, if I can find out how to beat this defense with my current handicaps, and there are a bunch of them, it will work anytime anyone try's this defense again. I like a challenge, but man this is murder.
RE: June 42
Keep going, discussion is the best thing. I enjoy it.
RE: June 42
ORIGINAL: Klydon
Kudos to the opponent for coming up with a pretty good strat when everyone was pretty much laughing at him for not attacking. It certainly seems effective for now and clearly there has been a method to his madness.
I'm not convinced it can't be busted.
And he can't win the war just sitting in his forts.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: June 42
I am still slugging it out. I just don't see anything I could have done different. I know I got hit hard by the TOE upgrade bug and such. That is a big factor too. I watched my proud 75+ exp infantry melt into 50 exp slugs. Pray this is fixed for good.
If I could I would pull 2nd and 3rd Panzer out of the line and head to around Smolensk where it is just a single 3 unit stack in level 4 forts with hardly anything backing it, right now. But the amount of rail he has, means it would not last long.
If I could I would pull 2nd and 3rd Panzer out of the line and head to around Smolensk where it is just a single 3 unit stack in level 4 forts with hardly anything backing it, right now. But the amount of rail he has, means it would not last long.
RE: June 42
Here is a recon shot of the Smolensk front. I am almost tempted to shift those panzers north.
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RE: June 42
If the German just digs in and returns the favor with a bunch of fort lines...this game is going to become very dull, lol.
Soviet won't be able to do anything until he gets artillery divisions, and even then, the German could slow the pace to a crawl unless the Soviet busts past the fort line.
We're looking to do stuff about the German experience cratering in the blizzard. I personally am not happy about it and think the game at present is making it very difficult for the landser to recover properly from the blizzard.
Edit: hell, yes, go north. If that's the weak spot in his fort line, then by all means.
More players really need to start doing their games with the fort display enabled. You are missing a lot of information with that turned off. It's every bit as important as permanent terrain features, if not more. If I had know he had this weak of a fort defense up north, I would have suggested going there in the first place.
Soviet won't be able to do anything until he gets artillery divisions, and even then, the German could slow the pace to a crawl unless the Soviet busts past the fort line.
We're looking to do stuff about the German experience cratering in the blizzard. I personally am not happy about it and think the game at present is making it very difficult for the landser to recover properly from the blizzard.
Edit: hell, yes, go north. If that's the weak spot in his fort line, then by all means.
More players really need to start doing their games with the fort display enabled. You are missing a lot of information with that turned off. It's every bit as important as permanent terrain features, if not more. If I had know he had this weak of a fort defense up north, I would have suggested going there in the first place.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: June 42
And that is all I can ask. I know you guys are testing it etc. I don't want dull. Hate dull. I have a bad habit of attacking just to give me something to do. LOL
The more I study the turn 54, the more I think about doing a radical shift north and pop him there. But can my armor handle it. That is the question.
The rail issue is what scares me, I know before my offensive he had units 4 deep across his front, I will be facing level 4 forts right behind his front line. He can just jump on that train and be back up there before I can even blink.
The more I study the turn 54, the more I think about doing a radical shift north and pop him there. But can my armor handle it. That is the question.
The rail issue is what scares me, I know before my offensive he had units 4 deep across his front, I will be facing level 4 forts right behind his front line. He can just jump on that train and be back up there before I can even blink.
RE: June 42
No he had a strong front up until turn 53. Once I had commited my armor he shifted south.
RE: June 42
Yeah, he can redeploy, but he won't have forts in depth. Those guys in the open won't be anywhere near as tough. Crack the shell open, and it's going to be level 1s and 2s at most.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: June 42
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
No he had a strong front up until turn 53. Once I had commited my armor he shifted south.
It takes a while to dig in. Note that you cannot add more than a single fort level a turn. It takes a month minimum to go from 0-4, and after the first two levels the construction required to get more levels ramps up pretty dramatically.
Just get in there and bust that shell open and you'll get inside his decision loop.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: June 42
Hope so, like i said, he was 4 deep all along his front all winter long. And I mean all winter. The key would be to bust through his front and get my armor thru far enough to get past those level 4 forts. If I pull them back (and he is doing serious recon now) and pop his line, and I think I can only pop it in one place, my armor might not have the movement to get thru deep enough.
RE: June 42
This is what he had there since Dec 41 along that front. This is March 42 recon.
I am pretty sure he will be level 4 for about 4 hexes in.
I am pretty sure he will be level 4 for about 4 hexes in.
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kfmiller41
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- Location: Saint Marys, Ga
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RE: June 42
He will not have to sit in his forts once he can make infantry and mech corps, then all those troops will stack up and start attacking, in the numbers he will have I think you will just get overrun. Just an opinion of course and you will have to see how it goes. In my contest with Haudrauf my corps are just starting to come online and I expect to really start pushing him back towards the end of summer
You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.
RE: June 42
He has about 9 million troops right now. Tanks only about 5000. But troops he has out the whazoo.
I am going to find a way to beat this defense or everyone will be using it.
I am going to find a way to beat this defense or everyone will be using it.