Retreat losses for German Panzers ?!?

[MrLongleg]

I just got turn 51 back from my opponent and I think I have to stop all offensive operations right away and start digging for the rest of the game. I think the combat mechanics make it quite hard for the German player to mont any kind of a meaningful offensive after the Blizzard. (Look at 2nd ACR's AAR - he was not even attacked during the Blizzard and still has a very hard time). In 4 Russian counter attacks (all of them succeeded) I lost 200 tanks and about 18000 men, more than a fully equipped Panzer division. The retreat losses are killing me. Historically there were successful counterattacks, but German mobile units were able to retreat without loosing half of their vehicles. Some of the battles were in clear terrain and only rifle divisions were attacking. Still the tanks got hammered. And all of the divisions under attack had green morale indicators. Anybody out there with an opinion? Is this realistic or not. Maybe it is - because I was beaten up so badly in the winter.

Another thing I noticed was that my air force was completely absent in 3 of the 4 battles although I have 150 fighters about 110 miles away.

I post that here too so that the developers can have a look at it and comment. With the current mechanics and from looking at e current GC 41 AAR's I see a real danger that at the end the best strategy for the German's is to dig in and let the Russians attack into level 4 and 5 forts.

[2ndACR]

Don't retreat, it hurts bad. LOL

[randallw]

The blizzard increases the percentage of German air missions that abort.

[PMCN]

To be frank a full strenght panzer divison has a CV value of between 180 and 200. The only one even close was the 7th and that was hit by 3x as many men and guns, and you note they took higher losses then you did.

In the first case look what is hitting you that is 4x as many men, 6x as much artillery and as many tanks as you have, plus those are burnt out shells of panzer divisions, and I count 6 Rifle divisions, a cavalry corps and a tank corps...seriously what do you expect would happen in real life if that occurred?

The second battle again 4x as many men, 5x the artillery. The losses are about equal so you mauled him good but could not inflict sufficient damage to break the attack. Again that is very weak panzer division based on its starting CV value.

The third battle was a near thing and you have gotten caught by a CV increase to the soviets side (their final is higher than the start). If it wasn't from that it was just that 4 Rifle divisions were able to inflict 10% losses and trigger the retreat. Also you were fighting in the woods that helps him more than it helps you. Especially if that CV I see there is only because of the +1 defence adjustment as that would have the CV of the unit.

The fourth one, again look at the numbers. 5x in men and 7x in artillery. And you suffered less casualties then he did. Plus he got the final CV adjustment (you did as well but I suspect your final CV was quite low due to combat losses).

Your opponent is massing overwhelming firepower against you. His artillery attacks alone are going to hurt, he is accepting higher casualties in most cases and he is pushing you back. I can't think of a single time in real life when the German's would not have suffered hard from attacks like those. Plus those are good experience Rifle divisions to have those sorts of CVs which makes a huge difference in fire. But the amount of damage from artillery and mortars he is dishing out is the reason you are getting forced back.

The only one of those attacks you had a better then a snow flakes chance in a blast furance was the third, that was close and he got lucky. The others he just used overwhelming firepower. The main problem is those units should not be on the front line they are all in serious need of a some weeks in the rear rebuilding. You have 100 tanks betwen 2 panzer divisions. Most of those were barely regimental kampfgruppe...500 Support squads = 10000 men and you have a total of 13K in a few cases...you have no tanks, and your line battalions are weak. In the last one you had less than 6000 infantry, considerably less than 6000 infantry I would guess. Typical for a panzer division is 4000+ infantry in its 4 line battalions. 2 Panzer divisions and SS motorized division had only 36000 men...of which it is possible 30000 are support troops. So 6000 infantry faced 50000 or so.

I don't see anything extraordinarily out of wack here...possibly number 3 but that can be chalked up to just luck. The others you were snowed over. Also your retreat losses are probably small, my guess is that only 25% of the losses come from the retreat the rest were inflicted in the fight, that is a lot of artillery that was present in all cases. The numbers of mortars in those battles, I shudder to think how much damage you would have gotten from the 120 mm alone. You were hit 3x with, in the last case, probably over 100 120 mm mortars. He also had over 1000 ATR's which is why your tank losses are so high...though in all honesty the loss counter increments 1 per 2 damaged tanks and I suspect you repair a fair number of them so I suspect your tank losses are lower then they look.

[MrLongleg]

ORIGINAL: randallw

The blizzard increases the percentage of German air missions that abort.

We are in May 42 - Blizzard is over since a long time...

[MrLongleg]

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

To be frank a full strenght panzer divison has a CV value of between 180 and 200. The only one even close was the 7th and that was hit by 3x as many men and guns, and you note they took higher losses then you did.

In the first case look what is hitting you that is 4x as many men, 6x as much artillery and as many tanks as you have, plus those are burnt out shells of panzer divisions, and I count 6 Rifle divisions, a cavalry corps and a tank corps...seriously what do you expect would happen in real life if that occurred?

The second battle again 4x as many men, 5x the artillery. The losses are about equal so you mauled him good but could not inflict sufficient damage to break the attack. Again that is very weak panzer division based on its starting CV value.

The third battle was a near thing and you have gotten caught by a CV increase to the soviets side (their final is higher than the start). If it wasn't from that it was just that 4 Rifle divisions were able to inflict 10% losses and trigger the retreat. Also you were fighting in the woods that helps him more than it helps you. Especially if that CV I see there is only because of the +1 defence adjustment as that would have the CV of the unit.

The fourth one, again look at the numbers. 5x in men and 7x in artillery. And you suffered less casualties then he did. Plus he got the final CV adjustment (you did as well but I suspect your final CV was quite low due to combat losses).

Your opponent is massing overwhelming firepower against you. His artillery attacks alone are going to hurt, he is accepting higher casualties in most cases and he is pushing you back. I can't think of a single time in real life when the German's would not have suffered hard from attacks like those. Plus those are good experience Rifle divisions to have those sorts of CVs which makes a huge difference in fire. But the amount of damage from artillery and mortars he is dishing out is the reason you are getting forced back.

The only one of those attacks you had a better then a snow flakes chance in a blast furance was the third, that was close and he got lucky. The others he just used overwhelming firepower. The main problem is those units should not be on the front line they are all in serious need of a some weeks in the rear rebuilding. You have 100 tanks betwen 2 panzer divisions. Most of those were barely regimental kampfgruppe...500 Support squads = 10000 men and you have a total of 13K in a few cases...you have no tanks, and your line battalions are weak. In the last one you had less than 6000 infantry, considerably less than 6000 infantry I would guess. Typical for a panzer division is 4000+ infantry in its 4 line battalions. 2 Panzer divisions and SS motorized division had only 36000 men...of which it is possible 30000 are support troops. So 6000 infantry faced 50000 or so.

I don't see anything extraordinarily out of wack here...possibly number 3 but that can be chalked up to just luck. The others you were snowed over. Also your retreat losses are probably small, my guess is that only 25% of the losses come from the retreat the rest were inflicted in the fight, that is a lot of artillery that was present in all cases. The numbers of mortars in those battles, I shudder to think how much damage you would have gotten from the 120 mm alone. You were hit 3x with, in the last case, probably over 100 120 mm mortars. He also had over 1000 ATR's which is why your tank losses are so high...though in all honesty the loss counter increments 1 per 2 damaged tanks and I suspect you repair a fair number of them so I suspect your tank losses are lower then they look.

I get your point, but then it is game over for the Germans in 42...

[PMCN]

I think it is a different game for the Axis player in 1942.  Also one thing to keep in mind, those losses he took hurt.  It may not seem so but those losses are concentrated in his Rifle Squads and anytime you see close to 10% losses that reflects about 30-50% damaged and destroyed Rifle squads in the attacking divisions.  He can't keep that up, after that attack a lot of the experienced squads are no longer present and his Rifle squads experience took a nose dive.  Given time he can rebuild it, but a few more attacks like that and he will be entirely on raw recruits.  Also I'd suspect that given the artillery levels those were divisions with 100% TOE levels, I doubt they still are that strong.  A full strength Rifle division has 3900 men in its infantry battalions (plus around 800 more sappers and SMG armed infantry)...so look at the losses and you see that he was loosing over a division worth of infantry in virtually all of them.

I think it is fair to say that any soviet player knows the CV value of a full strength Panzer division.  When you put out a Panzer division with a counter CV value below 6, that is a sign, in neon, with screaming sirens attached that says "kick me."  Put it out alone in a hex...and it on its knees begging for that kick.

One last point the 42a Rifle division TOE is probably one of the strongest in the war, so at the moment he is at the high water mark.  But what makes the situation very different for you is the combination of increased experience (it isn't exactly a smooth curve there seems some steps in it) and the fact the Soviets TOE changes are making the infantry very mortar heavy, and the 120 mm and 82 mm mortars are very good.  In 41 your losses were so low because basically after some anemic artillery fire at the start of the attack he didn't shoot again until after you had poured all your fire into him, now it is exchanges and with 1200+ artillery he may be inflicting more damage on you, up until your tanks start firing in the middle range band, but even then he can be firing back with his mortars and then with his MGs and some long range rifle fire.  Overall this can make a huge difference since anything he damages/destroys/disrupts in these exchanges is no longer contributing to the battle.

41 and 42 combat is night and day, that is probably the hardest thing you have to adopt to.  Worse you can't see the battle and the battle report isn't that useful...my observations may be quite wrong but they are based on watching lots of fights both attacks and defenses.  But losses from artillery and mortars in particular are on the order of 50-60% of all casualties as a rule of thumb.  It seems to be about 3 damaged devices to every destroyed device but this is just from mentally keeping track and I could be out significantly.