Mark 37 fire-control system

[Buck Beach]

Is there any AA accuracy differential for the weapons on ships having the Mark 37 fire-control system versus those that do not have the system in the game.

Buck

[topeverest]

Buck,

IIRC, the Sims Class DD was the first American DD with the combined radar controlled fire director and proximity fuse shell to combat faster moving aircraft.  I think you are calling this the MK37 system.  The best guess I have is that the various in-game radar devices have accuracies that I believe are applied in some fashion to improve the 'naked' AA accuracy.  As the AA radars improve, so does the AA performance.

In short, I would suggest the answer to your question is 'yes' - that is unless I am failing to understand these devices.

[Buck Beach]

My question is prior to the sophisticated radar and the proximity fuse.

What got me thinking about this is this article: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/GSBO/GSBO-10.html, I see where there were dollar versus value considerations used, regarding the system, as it applied to the to arming of auxiliaries or more specific in the article, oilers.

This is the background to the question.

[topeverest]

When I went to the link, I could not find the information.  To be clear, you are talking about WITPAE game design, or historical WWII documents revealing design decisions?

[Sardaukar]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/GSB ... .html  without the comma in end is the correct link. [;)]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
My question is prior to the sophisticated radar and the proximity fuse.

What got me thinking about this is this article: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/GSBO/GSBO-10.html, I see where there were dollar versus value considerations used, regarding the system, as it applied to the to arming of auxiliaries or more specific in the article, oilers.

This is the background to the question.

I think the best answer to your question is, no. Radar is abstracted in the detection portion of several combat algorithms. Air and Surface radars allow for early detection of airstrikes or enemy TFs. It allows for CAP to respond earlier and get into position, or for a TF to have a better chance of spotting the enemy first and crossing the T.

We would have loved to have added fire-control radar functionality, but that would have involved a lot more code and a poopload more analysis, and we wanted to get this monster out the door. The whole magilla of gun-directors/VT fuzing/etc is abstracted into the AA routine as a year-based, stepwise, increase of effectivity. There are no provisions in the AA algorithm to account for fire-control radar Device enhancements to nominal AA effectivity. There are no provisions in the Naval/SurfCom algorithm to account for fire-control radar Device enhancements to nominal Gun effectivity.

Wish it were otherwise, but it would have taken at least another year to get that particular witch running right. The touchstone for AE was "at least as good as stock." We could have done better with more people, time, effort, money (heck, any money), but think we hit the touchstone.

I know this don't 'hep ya none, but all I can do is tell ya what we gots and why, and what may, or may not, be susceptible to tweaking. This one is, unfortunately, a 'may not'. Ciao. John

[Buck Beach]

With the departure of our resident expert JWE,I will throw this one up for grabs:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view ... 28;num=522

In the photo forward part of the ship (on the left), is this a gun control system. If so I am very surprised given the cost of the system, especally for only 1 3" gun (from other info).

Buck

Sure wish John would return to us.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Sure wish John would return to us.

You are not alone. Maybe we could all band together and form a heavenly choir to try to entice him back?[8|] Alternatively if someone could actually point out the mechanism for sending some bottles of ron Zacapa 23![:)]

Alfred

[dwg]

In the photo forward part of the ship (on the left), is this a gun control system. If so I am very surprised given the cost of the system, especally for only 1 3" gun (from other info).

The oiler in the picture is AO-22 Cimarron, with 4x1x5" and Mk37, not the Esso Annapolis that the caption first refers to: "As of October 1940 the first five of these ships (AO 22-26) were supposed to receive the prewar standard armament for large auxiliaries, consisting of 4-5"/38 DP guns controlled by a Mk. 37 fire control director. AO 22-24 and most of the others entered service with no armament at all. Between September 1940 and April 1941 AO-22 received her full 5/38" armament, with director, at the Philadelphia Navy Yard." From http://www.shipscribe.com/usnaux/AO/AO22.html

But getting back to the original question, JWE talked about year by year tweaks in the AA algorithm to handle the march of technology and the arrival of proximity fused shells, but directors are a separate accuracy change unconnected to proximity shells that applies differently on a ship by ship basis -- such as some Cimarrons having Mk 37 and some not (interesting to see from that web-page above that AO-23 is the source of Delhi's armament suite). One way to model this in AE would be by going into the device and ship stats and creating devices which are gun-director pairs, rather than just guns, so that a ship might get 5"/38-Mk37, or 5"38, depending on whether the director was present, with the 5"/38-Mk37 having improved accuracy over the non-director controlled mount.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: dwg

One way to model this in AE would be by going into the device and ship stats and creating devices which are gun-director pairs, rather than just guns, so that a ship might get 5"/38-Mk37, or 5"38, depending on whether the director was present, with the 5"/38-Mk37 having improved accuracy over the non-director controlled mount.

I guess in the overall scope of the game such detail is superfluous and would be a waste of time for the effort needed to create it. Still, many such little things in the overall database is part of what makes this game so great and not just for its playability purposes.

If I knew anything about how to do it I would probably add it to my mod (after about a million other things I am trying to do). Any suggestions as to how to begin such a monster?

Buck

[dwg]

Start small? Pick one gun type and one director and add the pair as a device, with a slight accuracy bump over the standard weapon (or knock the standard weapon's accuracy back a notch or two). Once you have the devices, swap them into the appropriate ships.

I think it only needs considering for 3" through 5", weapons that varied from local control up to the most sophisticated of directors, most of the heavier stuff should all be under director control as a part of its basic stats. Exceptions to 3" through 5" might be some of the director-controlled 40mm mounts like Hazemeyers, and 6" guns under local control on AMCs.

There's possibly also an argument for tweaking accuracy in some of the more elaborate CD facilities, I assume CD accuracy gets a boost over ship-based firing in the basic algorithms, but some CD installations had very long baseline rangefinders which is a similar sort of boost to having a better director, though radar meant ships weren't limited by the physical length of rangefinder arms by later in the war.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: dwg

Start small? Pick one gun type and one director and add the pair as a device, with a slight accuracy bump over the standard weapon (or knock the standard weapon's accuracy back a notch or two). Once you have the devices, swap them into the appropriate ships.

I think it only needs considering for 3" through 5", weapons that varied from local control up to the most sophisticated of directors, most of the heavier stuff should all be under director control as a part of its basic stats. Exceptions to 3" through 5" might be some of the director-controlled 40mm mounts like Hazemeyers, and 6" guns under local control on AMCs.

There's possibly also an argument for tweaking accuracy in some of the more elaborate CD facilities, I assume CD accuracy gets a boost over ship-based firing in the basic algorithms, but some CD installations had very long baseline rangefinders which is a similar sort of boost to having a better director, though radar meant ships weren't limited by the physical length of rangefinder arms by later in the war.

It's now in my queue.

Thank's

Buck