Creating GC 1941-1945 G in which Germany has a chance

[matt.buttsworth]

Anyone willing to create an alternate GC in which Germany has a chance of victory in 1941 or 1942 although after that Russian victory is almost inevitable?

Initial need. People who know how to create a scenario and suggestions of increasing German's capacity to win or fight longer in the game.

Matthew Buttsworth
Germany

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Anyone willing to create an alternate GC in which Germany has a chance of victory in 1941 or 1942 although after that Russian victory is almost inevitable?

Initial need. People who know how to create a scenario and suggestions of increasing German's capacity to win or fight longer in the game.

Matthew Buttsworth
Germany

Maybe simply adjusting some parameters in the options screen? Increasing fort building times, lowering Soviet morale, transport...? Admin levels? This seems to be the simplest way...

[Zovs]

There is a new patch coming out very soon that fixes some of the 1941 German issues. I would suggest waiting for that to arrive before spending a lot of time on creating something new. Initial testing looks good for the Germans in 1941. Blizzard is still going to hurt. But things are looking good.

[matt.buttsworth]

I agree to wait for the new patch to see if it improves game balance, but I am still asking people for suggestions about how to improve game balance and for helpers in creating a new scenario in which Germany has a chance of winning.
Below are some of my suggestions.

Matthew Buttsworth

[matt.buttsworth]

The game I want to play is version 2 - call is scenario 1941-1945 G - in which it is enjoyable to play Germany from 1941 to - as a good player - 1943 when the avalanche becomes unstoppable with a real chance of victory for a very very good German player in 1941 and a real chance of victory with a good 1941 in 1942 even if this is hard to achieve. While a very good Russian player can survive the German assault in 1941 to coutner attack in the blizzards, can attack again with more strength in 1942, ane become unstoppable in summer autumn 43 with an abnormal but possible game finishing for germany in 41 or 42 and a normal game finishing for Russia between summer 44 and spring 45.
Such a game would reflect what happened in history and be fun and a challenge to play for both sides.
The question is how to get there.
It needs I beleive a specific scenario created

Possible Suggestions I can make:
1) strenthening blitzkrieg warfare (helps 41 or 42)
2) weakening the effect of the blizzards so that Germans can survive the winter in reasonable shape.
3) reducing soviet transport capacity so that rail transport is a limited resource and at some times russian players must choose between losing factories or shifting armies.
4) lowering morale and experience of many russian units in 1941 to reflect the fact that many ukrainian and caucaussus units did not want to fight
5) preventing more russian units from moving in turn 1 or turns 1-2 reflecting paralysis of Soviet command in first weeks of war.

I think this scenario - 1941-1945 G - will be a matter of trial and error in development to achieve game balance.
But I think it will be worth it in that:
a) people who believe the game is right as it is can play the existing GC 1941-1945; and

b) those who want a game in which Germany has a chance and which in my opinion greater reflects what happened 1941 to 1945 can play the alternate scenario GC 1941-1945 G.
This I believe will attract a greater audience to this excellent game in that Germany will have 2 1/1 enjoyable summers and a chance to win and Russia will have two winters and two years of enjoyable offensive play with a greater chance of winning.
Such a game giving pleasure to both sides will increase the long term number of players for the game for who will want to play more than once if German defeat is inevitable after November 1941.

I am therefore asking for people willing to help create GC 1941 G scenario.
Any helpers?

Dr Matthew Buttsworth
Weimar
Germany

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth


5) preventing more russian units from moving in turn 1 or turns 1-2 reflecting paralysis of Soviet command in first weeks of war.

Instead of this, I would prefer the scenario begin in July 1941, once the Soviet frontier armies have been destroyed. I think the problem Soviets had in the real war, was not really paralysis, but that they crazily counterattacked during the first days along the whole front, being unprepared as they were. However, in the game there is already a movement penalty for the Soviets in the first turns. The kind of paralysis you propose is a pill too hard to swallow, and (in my opinion) ahistorical.

[Zort]

Was wondering if changing the initial settings could help in most of what you are asking.  You can lower the amount of soviet rail there, you can increase the chances of successful rolls in battles for the germans etc etc.  Wonder if trying that would be a version that might work without total reprogramming.

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: Zort

Was wondering if changing the initial settings could help in most of what you are asking.  You can lower the amount of soviet rail there, you can increase the chances of successful rolls in battles for the germans etc etc.  Wonder if trying that would be a version that might work without total reprogramming.

I agree.

[matt.buttsworth]

I agree too.
I would not have the skill to do any reprogramming at all.
I am just looking at suggestions.
From what you have said, I would say initial settings plus close look at morale and experience of southern soviet units to see iif some of the surrenders and unwillingess to fight concurrent with heroic resistence in other places in 1941 can be duplicated.

MB

[matt.buttsworth]

Perhaps also look, if possible, at inital defensive ratings of Soviet units as in june 1941 they had no defensive doctrine at all.
Must be capable of increasing with time though.
I do not know if that is possible.

MB

[Pawsy]

Whats the fixation about the electronic pat on the back? You know how well you have done or not. I do think that there is essentially two games here though. AI and PBEM play. I think it should be bias towards balancing pbem play.

[loveman2]

Having played WIR for years on end followed by the mighty FITE, I have to say perhaps I was expecting a bit much of Gary Grisby to recreate this moster game. I like his effort but find gamepay very differt from that of WIR and complex with regards to air play. Too many screens with loads of information perhaps and dislike not being able to produce what I want?
 
Compared to FITE I feel that there was a great game there but lacking again in production and bloody hard when winter comes if your soviet opponent knows what he is about.
 
The soviet player in 41 it seems has the ability to know where the german advances are coming and what to defend when the germans get there, he has the ability to block every advance and escape any encirclments, hence no soviet great losses and then wait for winter and bingo bye bye german army. God knows what I will be left with come summer of 42. Probably a handfull of tanks, no bullets and a one way ticket to Siberia!!![&:]

[2ndACR]

Right now, you will have a shell of your 41 army left due to bugs.

Once Beta 3 is released, we shall see what us Germans are left with.

[findmeifyoucan]

Actually Matt I like your idea on changes for the game to make it more realistic. And all those points you made I think would make a better game.

The Russians for sure had limited rail capacity at the beginning of the war and usually had to decide on moving armies or factories. My experience in playing similar grand strategy games like this was as the Russian all your rail capacity was dedicated to moving factories and every thing else just simply walked.

Also true that the Ukranian's did not want to fight. In fact after the German's take the Ukraine they should be able to generate some pro-German Ukrainian units to fight the Russians.

What about some amphibious capability for the Germans in the Baltic?

I disagree with starting the Campaigne after the Blitzcriege in June/41. That is the fun of it all to see if you can do as good, better or worse than what the Germans historically did.

Sounds to me like the 1st Winter has been made too nasty. Games I have played usually at this time period in the war German supply would be cut in half by range, armor 1/4 in strength and infantry halved with all Russian units double in attack.

Tony

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan



I disagree with starting the Campaigne after the Blitzcriege in June/41. That is the fun of it all to see if you can do as good, better or worse than what the Germans historically did.


Tony

The Soviets can also try to do it better than historically in their first turns, or should they be frozen in order to be servile sparrings while Germans have fun with them?.

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan



I disagree with starting the Campaigne after the Blitzcriege in June/41. That is the fun of it all to see if you can do as good, better or worse than what the Germans historically did.


Tony

The Soviets can also try to do it better than historically in their first turns, or should they be frozen in order to be servile sparrings while Germans have fun with them?.

When you've got a spare minute fire up the 41 Grand Campaign as the Soviets and let the Axis AI run.

You will notice a large amount of frozen Soviets.

It's not gonna be fun when I play my first Soviet GC in the first few turns.

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan



I disagree with starting the Campaigne after the Blitzcriege in June/41. That is the fun of it all to see if you can do as good, better or worse than what the Germans historically did.


Tony

The Soviets can also try to do it better than historically in their first turns, or should they be frozen in order to be servile sparrings while Germans have fun with them?.

When you've got a spare minute fire up the 41 Grand Campaign as the Soviets and let the Axis AI run.

You will notice a large amount of frozen Soviets.

It's not gonna be fun when I play my first Soviet GC in the first few turns.

But Matt is asking for MORE frozen units!! (his point 5)
Hence my "proposal" of beginning in July, with everything Soviet already smashed...[;)]

[findmeifyoucan]

I don't think the Russians should be forced to stand and fight, thus being frozen. Much like I don't think the German's should have been forced to stay in Stalingrad when they were being surrounded by the Russians in The Battle of Stalingrad

[dirtyharry500]

How could you think germans have a chance to win this war? just do it and try to manage your own strategy and conduct operations the best you can do!
You have at the beginning the best soldiers and weapons but the logistic in this too large country will kill you and the more russians you'll kill, the more will replace!
see you later!
At the end you'll lose against millions of people who don't fear to die
nevertheless this is a great challenge , enjoy it

[findmeifyoucan]

Actually the Germans could have one this war if Hitler was not in charge of the military and he let the Generals do their job.

The Germans should have some limited amphibious capability in the Baltic as their main fleet was located in Kiel which had easy access to both the North Sea and the Baltic. Granted most of their fleet was dedicated towards the United Kingdom but they had dedicated a small navy to the Baltic to keep the Russian navy small as it was in check and could have dedicated a few amphibious transports to the Baltic. They never used it in the Baltic but could have making their advance towards Leningrad quicker and more than likely would have taken Leningrad before the first summer was over. Having Leningrad as a major supply base you could run a supply rail net from their to Moscow and Moscow would in turn fall in the next summer. Stalingrad is a big problem as the supply line for the Germans is so far and long. How the Germans got as far as they did I do not know and would be hard to duplicate I think. The Germans also had airborne capability that they could have used in Russia but didn't. That also would have been a factor. The Germans could also have been more sympathetic towards the Ukrainian and Caucasian causes possibly even to the point of having their populace join up with the German army with the Ukrainians having the capability to field their own small army. A pro-German country no less!