Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

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JAMiAM
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Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

This thread will be for posting the AAR on the game between Pieter (ComradeP) and myself. I hope that I can do it as much justice as the other AARs that are out there.

This game started as something of a "grudge" match. After viewing the excellent AARs posted by notenome and ComradeP on their CG 41-45, and reading some of their related posts in the main forum, I challenged some of the conclusions they reached, based on their experiences therein. In particular, I felt that they were giving the Axis side short shrift, since I didn't feel that Pieter (the Axis player) was playing to the Axis' strengths. One thing led to another and before too long I was asked for "proof" that the Axis should be played differently, and as I felt, better.

Thus, this game...[;)]

Please don't misunderstand the depth of respect that I have for both Pieter and notenome. I greatly appreciate the time and effort that they have put into their respective AARs, and have learned a great many things from reading them and analysing their playstyles - both what to do, and what not to do. They have done a great service to the community in showing what might be accomplished by both sides. Notenome's play as the Soviets has shown a steady progression in skills, and has been widely praised by some of the more experienced players and beta testers. Pieter's opening turn was very good and he showed a willingness to try a variation from the original OKH plan, by diverting a large portion of 2nd Pz Gp to assist in the south, emphasizing a Ukraine first strategy. That the game sort of got away from him was due in no small part by notenome's excellent grasp of the mechanics of the game, and extremely fast progression along the learning curve.

However, now that I've come and praised Caesar, it is time to bury him...

To the game!

My first turn was fairly typical of most of my Axis games. I feel that the original OKH plan of a three pronged attack, though somewhat ambitious in its ultimate goals, had the best disposition of force given the realities of the time. I plan to start the war with virtually all of 2nd and 3rd Pz Gruppen striking along their original avenues of attack. This is because there is nothing that will panic a Soviet player more than the thought of losing Moscow. A strong thrust in that general direction will cause the Soviets to guard against the loss of the capital in 1941, and will likely pull forces from other fronts deemed less important. This will, in turn, lead to weaknesses in Soviet defenses that can be exploited by the early war advantages in mobility, and the ability to concentrate force, that the Axis possess. The Soviets cannot defend everything in depth, and will be forced through destruction and displacement to give up territory.

Of course, no war in Asia was ever won by simply capturing the land. The enemy armies must be crushed, and the enemy's ability to continue waging war must be severely reduced. The quick capture of as many population centers, industrial complexes, and resources will be necessary in order to prevent the Soviet army from growing as fast, and as powerful as it has in many of the games that have been shown on the various AARs. By adhering, at least at first, to the general OKH plan, my two Pz Gruppen in AGC will be able to execute a variety of manuevers, depending of the changing fortunes of war. They can help with a "Right-hook" against Leningrad, an unhinging of the Lower Dnepr River line (Kiev pocket), continue thrusting against Moscow, or grab other targets of opportunity. Or, so is the plan...

The turn opened up with a couple hundred recon flights, bringing the enemy airbases up to Det10, and identifying unit types for virtually every unit that I would run into, over, or have to contend with as possible counterattackers during my opponent's first turn. In most of my PBEM turns, I generally run between 100-300 recon flights per turn to gauge where my opponent's force lie, where his CAP is flying, how strong his airfields are, what types of planes I might be meeting during my own battles, etc. An intimate knowledge of your enemy is the first step in defeating him.

After my recon flights are over, I bomb the enemy airfields, from the frontier to as deep as my Ju-88 and He-111 bombers can reach. I want to maximize casualties amongst his air units this first turn. Especially, against any long-range bomber bases. After a few of the AI chosen air missions set at the 50% required to fly mark, I start dialing down the %, and run subsequent sorties with more individual control. I've seen some players do a great job of maximizing the losses to the enemy air, getting upwards of 6000+ enemy airframes destroyed in the first turn. However, I find that there is generally a point of diminishing returns past about 5000-5500, and I like to keep my planes a bit more fresh for ground support both in my turn, as well as during the enemy turn, to ward off counterattacks. I've heard that Pieter is a fairly aggressive Soviet player, and I want to leave him a few targets to attack during his turn, to gauge his playstyle.

The next few posts will show the ending positions at the end of my turn. Since this screenshot shows the air losses at the end of the turn, it includes some losses due to overrunning enemy airbases, air-to-air combat, ground support missions from both sides, etc. In other words, it is not exclusively the airbase bombing that caused these losses.

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JAMiAM
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

It should be noted that since I have recently joined the Beta Testing team for WitE, the version of the game is the same as what is soon intended for a public beta patch. Thus, the changes that Joel listed in the main forum with respect to morale gain, and the swamp/heavy forest modifiers, are in effect for this game. It remains to be seen how much these changes will affect the overall balance of the game, both in 1941, and beyond.

There are aspects of these changes that will help and hinder both sides. My main concern, as the Axis player, is that morale improvements from successful battles is severely reduced. This will affect my mobility after turn one, when the special movement rule for the Axis expires. Further, it will accentuate my units drop in combat effectiveness as the campaign wears down my forces TOE, and the previous morale inflation is no longer there to compensate. It will also reduce the runaway morale gains for the Soviets that are usually experienced in the Winter, so perhaps it will balance out, if their Winter counteroffensive runs out of steam earlier. We shall all soon see for ourselves!

This screenshot shows the ending dispositions of my forces in AGN's area of operations. I've focused on clearing a wide path for my infantry to advance on turn two, taken Riga with XXXXI Pz Korps, crossed the Dvina with LVI Pz Korps, and with the help of some of XXXIX Pz Korps from 3rd PzGp, created two pockets of troops for elimination on the second turn. Since this screenshot was taken before the end of turn logistics, it does not show the reduction in size of the enemy controlled hexes in the pockets. As they are OOS, any hexes not adjacent to the enemy units will convert to my side and be that much more difficult for any units of his that recover from their routed status to move into, not to mention impossible for the still routed units. In some cases, I've run my exploiting units within two hexes of enemy stacks containing routed and non-combat units, in order to convert those hexes, and yet avoid displacing them to safe territory. I want to maximize the number of enemy units that I can cause to surrender on the next turn.



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JAMiAM
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

One of the changes that is upcoming will be to prohibit routed units from utilizing strategic movement (rail, or sea transport). I predict that this will have a major impact on the Soviet player, since he will no longer be able to move his routed units to the rear lines and safety. These units will often be still routed on subsequent turns and will be able to be easily chased away for further displacement losses, and continuous hits to their morale. Momentum is key to the Axis in the early stages of the war (indeed to any side with the Strategic Initiative), so keeping the enemy units morale low, will be a constant focus of my attacks. Given that successful battles will be less likely to offset morale losses to my own forces due to failed attacks, being careful on my own attacks will be important, too.

This screenshot shows the area of operations for AGC. The 2nd and 3rd Panzer Gruppen have cut wide paths in their advance towards Minsk. Since the new patch will prevent any railing of Soviet industry on turn one, I am not in a hurry to capture Minsk this turn. Instead I have focused on making sure that the enemy pocket at Bialystok/Grodno is securely bypassed, and that the supply lines are not going to be impacted by any Soviet incursions. With this in mind, I have run a motorized division into the Pripyet Marshes, to clear the rail line of the dozen routed Soviet units that accumulated there in the first turn's attacks. I don't want them to cause me any grief by regaining their morale and being a thorn in my side. There were also another half dozen sitting the in the two towns on the northern edge of the Pripyet that I bounced by putting the hexes into my zoc.



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JAMiAM
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

In the War Room sub-forum, there is a thread on opening moves for AGS. Some of the moves are very strong, my favorite being the solid pocketing of Lvov. Some of the others show a run to the Rumanian border, with varying levels of success. Almost all of them, however, rely on a major commitment of force from 2nd Pz Gp. Since I do not want to weaken AGC at this stage and preserve more strategic flexibility once I hit the upper and lower Dnepr River lines, I am relying on 1st Pz Gp to do the work on its own. Well...almost on its own. I did send down the GD Regiment to bolster the two available Pz Korps that 1st Pz Gp has at start.

Given that my forces in AGS are facing the strongest concentration of Soviet forces on turn one, my goals are going to be a bit less ambitious than for the other two Army Groups. My goals here are to disrupt the enemy defenses, clear the railway to Lvov, and advance strongly along the Lvov-Tarnopol axis. I have run a Pz Division down toward Rumania to cut the railway, thus preventing the easy extrication of the Soviet forces along the Carpathians. They can still move overland, but will have to either swing around the hexes converted by the Panzers in their roundabout march, or will have to struggle through rivers and my controlled territory, severely limiting their mobility. The conversion of hexes this far south will also activate the Rumanians on turn two, allowing them to come into the war.

I hope to be able to catch much of the 6th, 12th, and 26th Soviet armies on turn two, when the Rumanians and 11th Army activate, and 1st Pz Gp continues its advance toward Prokhorov and Vinnitsa. Then, a turn three elimination of the pocket.

The Panzers around Tarnopol may look weak, and I expect that Pieter will likely try to engage them. That is expected, and not entirely unwanted. If he makes a major commitment toward attacking my units, he will cut up with my Pz Korps artillery assets and air units. Then, his forces will be stuck close and in range of my infantry. This is a "honeypot" tactic, that will allow me to get a sense for how aggressive his defensive play will be and, hopefully, tie his forces down to the west of the river lines to be cut up by my infantry. The fewer forces that make it to the Dnepr, the better my crossing of that major obstacle will be, later on.

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

This screenshot shows the "big picture". Funny, but can you see the enormous gargoyle's head, facing east, in the screenshot? Typical of my Axis first turns...[:D]

It should be noted also that we are playing with random weather, full FoW, and HQs starting locked.

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

Finally, the ground losses for the first turn. Next turn, I've got around 40 divisions to eliminate in the various pockets, so his losses will grow even more.

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

Subscribed. I found the comments on your moves very interesting and detailed [:)]
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Timmeh »

These units will often be still routed on subsequent turns and will be able to be easily chased away for further displacement losses

nope, the act of moving adjaceint to them will cause surrender.
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: Timmeh
These units will often be still routed on subsequent turns and will be able to be easily chased away for further displacement losses

nope, the act of moving adjaceint to them will cause surrender.

I think they only surrender if isolated. Otherwise, they keep running.

Interesting thing about this opening, is that you chose to attack and Rout lots of units Turn 1, like all the units in the Baltics, the units north of Lvov, the south end of the Bialystok pocket, etc. I always left those units alone and surrounded them, to force surrender on Turn 2. Is the new rules on Routing encouraging you to just go ahead and smash them?

Most of those units are poor morale to start, so routing a couple times will probably doom them anyway, maybe that's what your thinking.
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by british exil »

Also subscribed.

Wondering who will prove to the first to alter you battle plans.

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Schmauser »

Looking forward to a great fight and a great AAR. Hopefully your opponents have time to do one as well.

By Chance would you be the same JAMiAM from the old SMAC days/forums?

If so, I expect this to be a barn burner.[:)]
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Schmauser

Looking forward to a great fight and a great AAR. Hopefully your opponents have time to do one as well.

By Chance would you be the same JAMiAM from the old SMAC days/forums?

If so, I expect this to be a barn burner.[:)]
Indeed, I am that JAMiAM...[;)]

What was your handle on the old ACOL forums? Did we ever have the pleasure of playing some SMAC PBEM?
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Emx77 »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Subscribed. I found the comments on your moves very interesting and detailed [:)]

+1

I waited for this AAR. Regarding opening move of AGS, I'm not sure about Jamiam decision not to make encircle around Lvov on T1. Too many Soviets will escape for my taste.
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Schmauser »

I don't remember what it was. I mostly lurk as can be seen by my whopping post count. [8D]

At that time I was rather critical of SMAC and could see some serious design flaws in the game. I considered it to be a new coat of paint with a dusting of worms on the original CIV game. Looking back I realize that my expectations were a bit unfair. Call them too idealistic.

My recollection is that guys like you could win on the highest difficulty in under 40 turns and were devastating with the non-militaristic factions.

I never played PBEM. My life is too hectic to be a reliable opponent and I don't want to let people down.

Still allows me to live vicariously through those of you that do and post AAR's though.[:D]
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Mynok »


I like that AGS move. You don't need to move all the way to the border and back to cut the rail line out of Lvov sector. Just cut the line south of Tarnopol. The Russians can't use the far south line because of Rumanian ZOC.

The only thing I disagree with is not sending the cavalry from 2nd panzer south. It is critical IMO to pocket the Kovel/Rovno Forces on turn 2 and the cav movement in the marshes really helps with that.
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by Encircled »

Subscribed + 1

Nice to see an AAR with the 1.03 patch
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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

Games with new opponents are always a learning experience. They try something different that what you might be used to, you get to devise counters to their playstyle, and the feedback loop continues. The job of the gamer is to drive the results of that feedback loop in your favor, and not let the 'new' tactics you're facing unhinge your focus.

This screenshot shows the zoomed out map at the start of the turn. You might be able to see a few battles hexes marked. Besides the usual Soviet units surrenders, Pieter launched a few attacks on his first turn. His reputation as an aggressive Soviet player is indeed, well deserved.

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

One of the things that Pieter did, was to cause as much trouble in the pockets as he could. Notice the "eye" of the gargoyle's face in the previous screenshot? It grew a bit from the end of my last turn (post isolated hex conversion) due to his fanning out with units that had recovered from routed status. Though he did not reach anything of any importance during his turn, this reconverts the hexes and makes my advance a little slower for my turn two.

Likewise, he's sent some of his pocketed troops in the center eastward, and tried with a Rifle Division moving west from out of the pocket to pinch the 3rd Pz Gp supply lines. He got very close with his zoc's hex conversions to some of my forward airbases. Nice try, Pieter. Close...but no cigar...[:)]



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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

I wish that I had taken some better screenshots at the start of the turn, since the zoomed out 'large picture' doesn't show enough detail. It's hard to see from that shot, how aggressive, and forward, a game that Pieter is playing. Though you can't really see the size of many of the units from this zoomed out view, this post recon screenshot shows that Pieter is not really concerning himself with his fall back, primary defense lines in the rear, and trying to both engage, and defend at close range to my own forces.

As in Flavio's game, I ran about 500 air recon missions here to get a good feel for where Pieter was concentrating, and what type of defense I would run into across the map. In the Baltics, he has tried to defend at the Daugava River, even swapping out the Airborne Brigade at Daugavpils with a Rifle Division. Behind this screen is a checkerboard. More screens and checkerboards face AGC, while in the south, he's making good use of the river lines, and has laid down a thick carpet along my preferred avenue of advance, on the Tarnopol-Proskurov axis.

More ominously, he's massing forces along the northern edge of Bessarabia, and has even moved into Rumania, from Moldavia. I suppose he figures the Rumanians will show anyhow, and is trying to divert my attention. So...what will I do about this? More screenshots to follow...

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RE: Tres Amigos Uno! JAM v ComradeP (no ComradeP)

Post by JAMiAM »

While, in general, I think that Pieter is overplaying the aggessive stance this early in the game, his various attacks did have one fairly enduring negative affect against my forces. He won two of the four attacks that he launched this turn, against a Security Division near the Polish border, and against the German Panzer Regiment near Tarnopol. Unfortunately, its morale before the battle was at the magical 86, and lost a morale point due to losing the battles. When I recombined it with the other two breakdown regiments, the 86,86,85 morales rounded down to 85, putting this division under the magical mark. Now, I've got a unit that is going to pay +2 MPs to enter enemy territory.

This is another example of why I think that thet new morale rules are going to be rough on the Axis player. You can literally win 20 battles with a high morale unit and not gain a single morale point, but just one little setback and you get dinged for a point. A point, mind you, that you will probably NEVER recover.

Anyhow, off of my soapbox, and let's see Pieter's attack locations.

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