Feeding the colony rush

[gmot]

I like this colony goods approach - historically most colonies have needed support from the motherland before they are able to stand on their own. The game balance consideration would be to determine at which point a colony shifts from needing more imported goods than it produces to becoming an exporting. Too low and it doesn't significantly affect the colony rush, which is point of the suggestion. Too high and it cripples expansion in what is, after all, an expansion oriented game.

[Bingeling]

There is something way strange with travel speed in DW that does not fit the image I have of space travel. Gameplay wise it is fine though. Like responding for an attack from a neighbor system. How long does that frigate take to blast down that shield, anyways? It feels like weeks, months and years.

If you can swallow the pill that travel is as fast as it is, you can maybe live with the thought that food is moved between colonies like oranges are moved between continents today. Think of a planet like the earth? How much do we need from the outside? Would we require to bring along food for a trip to mars? Sure, but we for sure would base the mars colony to sustain itself with food, deliveries can not be trusted. Nor can they in distant worlds. Imagine the power of blockades... Food is nicely abstracted away with starting population sizes and colony caps. And who knows how food is made in 200 years anyways, the bulk of it it is not necessarily produced in anything resembling a garden or a wheat field...

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Sabin Stargem

Unlike the Nuclear Fission weapons we use, Nuclear Fusion is relatively clean of radiation. This means that someone could use them like a traditional explosive weapon, with no nuclear fallout.

Uh? We -HAVE- fusion bombs. It's called a "hydrogen bomb". They're not "safe", nor are they anywhere near "radiation-free".

Your statements are in complete opposition to all documentation on hydrogen bomb effects.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: gmot

I like this colony goods approach - historically most colonies have needed support from the motherland before they are able to stand on their own. The game balance consideration would be to determine at which point a colony shifts from needing more imported goods than it produces to becoming an exporting. Too low and it doesn't significantly affect the colony rush, which is point of the suggestion. Too high and it cripples expansion in what is, after all, an expansion oriented game.

Perhaps a better system is to allow development of the arable land on all colonies to the max, without regard to the population size. As it slowly expands (just like the population slowly expands now) then it eventually gets self-sufficient (in the case of ideal planets) and even produce slightly more than is needed on those ideal worlds. Also don't forget the tech tree.

Some further thought and suggestions:

Keep the Arable Land formula, with the same idea that it develops over time. Keep the naturally occurring food source idea with the ability to harvest from non-inhabitable planets. Keep the need for the 'food' type resources for colony happiness and growth. This helps to slow the opening colony rush...which is the point I'm trying to get to...followed by a quickening of colonization as technology increases. And for that we add a tech tree for farming that allows the food produced to increase per tech

Opening at start tech to end level tech:

• Farming - the opening tech, all races can do it.
• Large Scale Farming - second tech that increases food produced per arable land unit by %20.
• Hydroponic Farms - Station module that allows for the production of a small amount of food on space stations.
• Terraced Farming - increases food production by an additional 10%.
• Atmospheric Conditioning - (Pollution Scrubbers) increases food production by an additional 10%.
• Climate Stabilization - Increases Food production by an additional 10%.
• Master Farming - Increases food production by an additional 25%.

At the end of the tech tree, you get 175% production of food per arable land unit and the ability to make a small amount of food on stations (say 10-20 units of food per unit of time).

Additionally, one of the more farming suitable races could have a special tech:

• Minor Terraforming - 10% boost to farm production (opening tech)
• Major Terraforming - decreases the non-ideal production penalty by 1 (or 25 in the original formula) in other words, acceptable are treated as ideal, and poor are treated as acceptable.
• Massive Terraforming - removes all food production planet penalties (all are treated as ideal for the production of food).

These techs would affect food production only, not population supported.

And I'm sure Elliot won't go this in depth into any system he implements, but it would be nice if the game were open enough for modding that the community could implement it. Make it a mod instead of a default option. [;)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

There is something way strange with travel speed in DW that does not fit the image I have of space travel. Gameplay wise it is fine though. Like responding for an attack from a neighbor system. How long does that frigate take to blast down that shield, anyways? It feels like weeks, months and years.

If you can swallow the pill that travel is as fast as it is, you can maybe live with the thought that food is moved between colonies like oranges are moved between continents today. Think of a planet like the earth? How much do we need from the outside? Would we require to bring along food for a trip to mars? Sure, but we for sure would base the mars colony to sustain itself with food, deliveries can not be trusted. Nor can they in distant worlds. Imagine the power of blockades... Food is nicely abstracted away with starting population sizes and colony caps. And who knows how food is made in 200 years anyways, the bulk of it it is not necessarily produced in anything resembling a garden or a wheat field...

Basically what I was getting at. When you start the colony, you almost require food and building supplies be transported from a larger 'home' colony. Once the colony is established, then it will start becoming more and more self-sufficient to a point. Also there are no doubt some planets that simply cannot not support food production (there are places on Earth that are completely unsuitable to growing food), and while you can produce small amounts of food via technology or by exploiting a natural source, you are not going to go plow a field and grow tons of grain...just won't happen.

[Data]

ok, so this should go to the modders wishlist as well as the general wishlist
I'd like to see how a Shark mod would look like

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: feygan

If you have a 5 billion industrial world suddenly cut off from its supply routes then at least some of the populace will die out until it reaches a level where they can sustain themselves.

Considering that we have well over 5 billion here on Earth - and are nowhere near being able to traipse through the stars, nor do we have any problems generating sufficient food - I really wonder how you explain the "reasonableness" of this option.

The limits to our food production are more economic than physical. Hydroponics, for example, requires a lot of energy - and where electricity has a significant economic cost, it's a barrier to mass production. But given a society that has mastered fusion and can generate energy efficiently and cheap enough that transporting bulk materials such as steel and silicon between stars is economic - well, the sky is the limit. Not to mention the potential production gains from genetic tinkering. We've only BEGUN to experiment with GM foods, and the production increase looks to be on par with the development of the heavy plough in European agriculture.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Data

ok, so this should go to the modders wishlist as well as the general wishlist
I'd like to see how a Shark mod would look like

Probably unplayable by anyone but me...haha. [;)]

I'd like a full production/logistics system ala WiTP-AE on steroids. But then I am a WiTP player...I just like the fact that the DW economic AI seems to be up to the task, where most games fail miserably. DW is very close to my perfect game...it just needs a more robust production and logistics model...

IE Grain goes in, bread comes out, etc....though slightly more abstracted. If I had my way the resources would need to be refined into a finished product (food)...but I've already added that to my wishlist/modders wishlist...er ... list.

[cmdrnarrain]

Colony rush is part of the fun of the game.  If you don't want to rush start with a large empire.  I do like the idea of food, however.

[Sabin Stargem]

I stand corrected, Kayoz.

[Data]

I won't ask you to tell me if WiTP-AE is a good game...I cannot start on yet another one.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Data

I won't ask you to tell me if WiTP-AE is a good game...I cannot start on yet another one.

I'm not the one to ask at this point anyway...I haven't played a single turn since DW was released. [8D]

[gargoil]

I was very entertained by this thread, but in the end, I must completely disagree.

All you would be doing by adding any system to slow down the Colony rush is to give the player another obstacle to what HE/SHE WANTS TO DO, have as many colonies as possible. If the rush takes 5x longer, its still a rush, just a more frustrating one.

If you think about it, the 4x game model is absolutely ludicrious. Every sentient race began exploring and colonizing all at the exact same moment in time! BS. There would be many that would have had millions of years head starts, and others that would not be ready to begin for millions of year in the future. And all sorts inbetween. Just with all differing starting levels, tech level, mix it up completely, and you have the closes you can come to a truely POSSIBLE galaxy.

If we are not alone, that is. - But if we are, then what a incredible waste of space.[:o]

[Data]

But you can configure this already, Gargoil....for each of the other empires in the game you can set different tech levels, sizes etc

[gargoil]

Yes, Data - you are right. I was not infering that it could NOT be done, but that it would be the starting set up for those of who are attempting to forgo the Colony Rush. Make your empire one of the more mature ones with other mature empires. You'll will be more hard pressed to reorganize what you have, building what you need then worring about expansion. And you may have one of those more mature empires on your doorstep, which would kept you busy as well [:D]

[RaffleSnaffle]

Hmm, I say leave the game how it is right now and just work oon improving the things and making better the things that are already in it.

idk maybe I'm just not a huge micro player?

Definitely appreciate your very deep idea on this food concept tho shark You should make a 4x game I think.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle

Hmm, I say leave the game how it is right now and just work oon improving the things and making better the things that are already in it.

idk maybe I'm just not a huge micro player?

Definitely appreciate your very deep idea on this food concept tho shark You should make a 4x game I think.

If I could code I probably would have...though knowing how I do have a tendency to over-do things, it might never get past the alpha phase. [X(]

There are really 2 distinct types of 4X players...those that like a game that can be played in an afternoon and those that wish the game would never end. You can probably guess which type I am. [;)]

[unclean]

ORIGINAL: Gargoil
If you think about it, the 4x game model is absolutely ludicrious. Every sentient race began exploring and colonizing all at the exact same moment in time! BS. There would be many that would have had millions of years head starts, and others that would not be ready to begin for millions of year in the future. And all sorts inbetween.

DW at least has a pretty decent excuse for it [:)]

Also Shark7 there's no way I'm reading all that, but have you ever played the Aurora 4x? Somehow I think I'd be right up your alley.

[Data]

The afternoon that never ends type? [:)]

[Data]

I actually tried it and while it does have a lot of potential it's way unpolished atm. Even if most 4x games could be labeled as spreadsheet games, Aurora is the definition for it at this stage.