The bear and the eagle ComradeP vs JAMiAM

[Klydon]

Second attack was a clean attack that would have worked without the modifier. 

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Second attack was a clean attack that would have worked without the modifier. 

Not without inflated CVs. If you look at unmodified CVs, ComP's is 70, defender 90.

[randallw]

Is it correct to believe that human Axis players tend to stick their mobile units into vulnerable situations much more than a computer Axis player?  I see you testers say the Sov player should counterattack as much as possible, and I personally don't see the chances when playing the comp.

[von Beanie]

I have played your opponent into 1942. Beweare the HQ Build-Up. He uses them frequently, and knows how to bag large numbers of units when you believe your defense is strong. My advice is that you do not want to stand and fight JiMAM if this is your first Soviet campaign. He knows what he is doing, and he will surprise you.

[ComradeP]

I notice all of your attacks rely on the, as you say, 'cheesy' soviet odds modifier, or at least much higher CV inflation compared to the Axis. In fact, they would have all failed without them.

How do you feel about both of those mechanics from the perspective of playing the Soviet side?

The second attack had a bit less than a doubling of CV, which is reasonable given how good the leader was, so I probably would've still tried that one without knowing about the odds modifier. For me, "inflated" CV starts at 3x initial CV. The Axis can get 2x too.

Of course, like I said I wouldn't have made the other attacks if the odds modifier had not been there.

I still think the odds modifier gives the Soviets too much of a bonus, nothing in that opinion has changed by now playing as the Soviets, as that opinion was also formed whilst playing as the Soviets against the AI.

However, as JAMiAM insisted the problems I saw/see in my game with notenome, some of which were fixed with a patch, were not really problems, I have no reason to hold back and I will show him what the odds modifier can do and that the ~1:1 casualties from some attacks will really hurt the Axis on the long term.

Is it correct to believe that human Axis players tend to stick their mobile units into vulnerable situations much more than a computer Axis player? I see you testers say the Sov player should counterattack as much as possible, and I personally don't see the chances when playing the comp.

I'd say a human player tries to take calculated risks, the AI just takes risks. The AI also seriously overextends mobile units from time to time, but you notice it less because the AI is easier to slow down, so the infantry is usually fairly close to the mobile spearheads.

I have played your opponent into 1942. Beweare the HQ Build-Up. He uses them frequently, and knows how to bag large numbers of units when you believe your defense is strong. My advice is that you do not want to stand and fight JiMAM if this is your first Soviet campaign. He knows what he is doing, and he will surprise you.

If he uses HQ build-up often, his motor pool shouldn't be too pretty at the end of 1941. I'm barely running within the limits in my game with notenome, I haven't used HQ build-up once and I've disbanded a number of units with a reasonable amount of vehicles.

I'm not going to stand and fight anywhere where there's not a carpet or a major terrain obstacle likes plenty of swamps, rough terrain or a mix of rivers and difficult terrain. Standing and fighting is rather suicidal for the Soviets. I can afford to do so in the south for the first few turns, but I'll pull back each turn most of the time.

I'm not too scared of HQ build-up, it gives him 50 MP's but no other bonuses. On turn 2, he should still have had around 40-45 MP's for most units and he didn't get that far.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I'm not too scared of HQ build-up, it gives him 50 MP's but no other bonuses. On turn 2, he should still have had around 40-45 MP's for most units and he didn't get that far.

More MP's mean more hasty attacks and the ability to convert more of your hexes after the breakthrough. The key is to make difficult such a breakthrough happening.

[ComradeP]

Yes, but in order for such a breakthrough to be successful, he'd need to stop hasty attacking every unit in a checkerboard, something he hasn't done yet in either the game with Flavio or with me, as he insists on attacking everything. Instead of a 3 layers deep checkerboard, you'd need a 4 layers deep checkerboard or, say, a 2 layer checkerboard and a line. Like I said: he should've had around 40-45 MP's for most of his mobile units on turn 2, and that didn't take him very far. If he uses HQ build-up on a few Panzer corps or even an entire Panzer Group, he's still only got a bit more mobility compared to turn 2.

There's also another problem, which James thinks primarily hurts the Axis (something I disagree with): it's far more difficult to gain morale now, so the 6 mobile divisions he starts with that have a morale of 80 or lower will be paying a minimum of 3 MP's per enemy hex, the 7 mobile divisions he starts with that have a morale of 85 will have to win a few battles to get it to 86 and until that point they'll also pay a minimum of 3 MP's per enemy hex. In the best of cases (with 50 MP's) and when unopposed, they'd be able to advance a maximum of 16 hexes (they wouldn't be able to use the final 2 MP's). His MP's should soon be around 25-30, especially as he's not flying resupply missions with most of his bombers.

[mmarquo]

ZOC cost = 115-morale/15
 
If moral = 85 then ZOC cost is 2; why does he need 86 to avoid paying 3 MPs rather than 85?
 
Marquo [&:]
 
PS Math is not my forte so please be patient... 

[raizer]

marquo its rounded down.  So morale of 85 =2 mps per hex but dont forget you need to add 1 for the clear hex so its 3 MP per hex.  After subtracting the 85 from 115, you are left with a clean 30 points which is divided by 15=2.  2+1 (clear hex) =3

If his morale is 86 you are left with a dirty [:)] 29 which when divided by15=1.9,  rounded down to 1 MP per hex but then you add in the 1 MP for a clear hex=2 MP per clear hex

you start throwing rivers/rough/the diff woods it starts to really add the F up

[jjdenver]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
However, as JAMiAM insisted the problems I saw/see in my game with notenome, some of which were fixed with a patch, were not really problems

I read it a bit different. I think he thinks the patch has made it harder on Germans, not easier due to changes to morale. But he still think the Germans can be a winner - although tougher to make it happen. I don't think he thinks the patch helped the Axis - but rather helped the Sovs.

[ComradeP]

I read it a bit different. I think he thinks the patch has made it harder on Germans, not easier due to changes to morale. But he still think the Germans can be a winner - although tougher to make it happen. I don't think he thinks the patch helped the Axis - but rather helped the Sovs.

I meant the previous one, where swamps and the like were fixed, not the one including the morale changes, the primary thing James mentions as not helping the Axis.

I also agree the Axis are not helped by that, and think the effects on the minor Axis are rather brutal in some ways, but I'd still prefer the new morale rules over having to face unstoppable stacks of Rifle corps.

I expect James will see the merit of the changes too when he faces Rifle corps with at best around 20 CV, which he should be able to handle.

[jjdenver]

That makes sense. However I think a large part of the strategy that JAM articulated involved driving up German morale (and down Soviet morale) by winning many small victories over the Soviets. This strategy is supported by many hasty attacks against a checkerboard pre-patch. However post-patch it seems to be less effective. How do you think the checkerboard should be dealt w/ differently? I'm struggling to think through what would be an effective attk strategy vs a checkerboard? Multiple waves of attackers to cause a true penetration and breakthrough on a small - 3 hex - front?

[Mynok]

Seems you would have to do rolling infantry waves like the Soviet attack method.

[ComradeP]

Winning many small victories to raise morale pre-patch might've sounded like a nice idea in theory, but it was actually not really necessary to fight those many small battles, as morale would be well over 90 and probably at or close to 99 before the mud for most units anyway.

Driving down Soviet morale is also not something they'll really feel: refitting during the mud will quickly get morale close to 50 again, also keep in mind that even when routed, morale losses will be partially compensated during the logistics phase if they're below national morale and/or the unit is refitting.

As to how to deal with the checkerboard: one of the main flaws I see in the way some Axis players attack is that they literally attack all across the front. One of the most cost effective ways to deal with a checkerboard is to penetrate it in a few locations at a time, forcing the units flanking the penetrations to pull back or be cut off. Deep penetrations that more or less automatically roll up the Soviet flanks have worked well in my game with notenome thus far, even more so than predicted.

[ComradeP]

James advanced 4-6 hexes in most areas, still slow and his mobile unit MP's are only going to decrease unless he frequently uses HQ build-up, which burns through his motor pool. His air supply with mostly transports and a bomber or two shouldn't be enough by far to keep him around 20-30 MP's on most turns, considering that with my heavily boosted (with level bombers) air transport missions in my game with notenome I can barely keep most of my units between 20-30 MP's at worst.

He advanced about as far in the south without mud as he did in Flavio's game with mud.

Aside from the HQ build-up's impact on the motor pool, there's also this:

the overall supply to your
whole army is reduced by about 1-2% for about 2 months for every time you use it.

That's also why I'm not a fan of using it pre-blizzard, as it will come back to haunt you.

Due to a mistake in his unit placement, supply has been restored to the remaining pocketed units (4 divisions, 1 AT artillery brigade and a NKVD regiment) near Stanislav.

I'm considering whether I should move units to Kuressare, it could be a thorn in his side during the blizzard. He's advancing north with his mobile units in the AGN area, though, so I don't have much time. Still, if he moves his mobile units there to capture the place, that would be a nice diversion.

Having evacuated Mogilev's industry last turn, I can theoretically spend all of this turns rail capacity on moving units around.

The only bad news is that an airborne brigade shattered, and it's sort of saying something that that's the bad news for the turn.

James really needs to focus on some point in the line and breach it decisively if he wants to go anywhere soon.

All in all, I'm still quite happy.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I'm considering whether I should move units to Kuressare, it could be a thorn in his side during the blizzard. He's advancing north with his mobile units in the AGN area, though, so I don't have much time. Still, if he moves his mobile units there to capture the place, that would be a nice diversion.

Can you tell me if it's possible to fortify and hold the land bridge on this peninsula?I'm at this point in my campaign game and I'm not certain if lack of supply will make it impossible.I'm assuming it'll recieve beachhead supply only once the peninsula is isolated because of the lack of rail joining to Kuressare?

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
James really needs to focus on some point in the line and breach it decisively if he wants to go anywhere soon.

I find this happens quite a lot when players meet a solid, well entrenched line of defence.Instead of picking a spot and throwing everything at it, they tend to dawdle as if they're hoping the defences will somehow get magically weaker next turn.

[ComradeP]

Can you tell me if it's possible to fortify and hold the land bridge on this peninsula?I'm at this point in my campaign game and I'm not certain if lack of supply will make it impossible.I'm assuming it'll recieve beachhead supply only once the peninsula is isolated because of the lack of rail joining to Kuressare?

Kuressare (the dot hex) has a port, so as far as I know units should be in better supply than beachhead supply.

Whether you can hold it will probably depend on how quickly the Germans get there and what they are committing to taking it. If you get to level 2 or 3 forts, it becomes questionable whether they can take it.

They can only attack across a major river and from one hex for the two entry hexes, so at worst you'll be keeping some German units busy for a while, which is good.

The major river hexside should freeze over during the blizzard, allowing you to attack as if it's a normal hexside.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
They can only attack across a major river and from one hex for the two entry hexes, so at worst you'll be keeping some German units busy for a while, which is good.
The major river hexside should freeze over during the blizzard, allowing you to attack as if it's a normal hexside.

Yes, this is part of what I'm thinking.Plus the port mkes it easy to either evacuate units to Leningrad or to reinforce the peninsula for a possible winter offensive into the rear of AGN.

[ComradeP]

James has bombed the port in his turn 3, but the damage was minimal.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

James has bombed the port in his turn 3, but the damage was minimal.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that.Is it possible for the Axis player to bomb the port out of operation?
The air war is so not my thing.