Winter Idea......Comment

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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MengJiao
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: Klydon
As I have mentioned before, I don't have the dog in the hunt on which side I play. I actually will be involved in playing both at some point. Right now, I would skip 1941 as a Axis player because no matter what you do against a good Soviet, you are toast come winter and you will absolutely struggle to do anything meaningful in 1942 in an offensive way.

Image

For a balanced game there's a lot to recommend starting sometime in a historical 1942 and giving the Axis some extra troops on the assumption they managed to pull out of Africa and the USA went after Japan First.
Stelteck
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by Stelteck »

In WITP AE, there is a successfull scenario often used in PBEM were the japan is renforced (simulating a japan that may have planned a long war instead of short one) in order to be able to hold better in the long run, and so often create a still very touch opponent in 1944/1945. (more ressources stockpiles at the start for productions, better pilots and better pilots training system, more ASW escorts ships, etc...).

Perhaps a similar scenario may be created for the axis in WITE. A scenario where germany planned a long war and so winterized a significant portions of its divisions. 
Brakes are for cowards !!
horza66
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by horza66 »

I would suggest what we really need for the German players is a nice detailed AAR from Emil on how he achieved his victory detailed in retrospect here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2725414

The opponent was Oleg, whose victory over 2ndACR started much of the existing debate over the effectiveness of post-blizzard Germans. Oleg stated that Emil was not the only player to achieve such a victory against him, which suggests that it is more a case of technique and aggressiveness in good weather that is needed, rather than looking more options to conserve forces in the blizzard.
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Klydon
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by Klydon »

ORIGINAL: horza66

I would suggest what we really need for the German players is a nice detailed AAR from Emil on how he achieved his victory detailed in retrospect here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2725414

The opponent was Oleg, whose victory over 2ndACR started much of the existing debate over the effectiveness of post-blizzard Germans. Oleg stated that Emil was not the only player to achieve such a victory against him, which suggests that it is more a case of technique and aggressiveness in good weather that is needed, rather than looking more options to conserve forces in the blizzard.

Nothing against Oleg as a Russian (I think he would admit he is still learning), but this AAR is an exception rather than the rule of most AAR's. I would think most of the community is closely watching Jame's two games against Pieter and Flav since Oleg was also a victim of James as well. I do agree that there are things to learn from Emir's AAR as well. I think 2ndACR's game got the ball rolling and Q-Ball's game has really caused it to pick up steam since it was a later version of the game.
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2ndACR
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by 2ndACR »

 I got clobbered by the TOE and replacement bugs, the uber swamps. I conceded the game to start a Beta 3 game where these were fixed. I am not going to say I "lost". I would have fought on doing a boring turtle and forced him to attack level 4-5 forts in every hex all the way to Berlin. Very boring game that would be.

Yes, he butchered 11th Army during the Blizzard. And toasted some Panzer Div who got cut off and completely forgot how to fight the next turn. Even though they had ample ammo/supply. Heck, 85% of my entire German army looked like the Romanian army at blizzard end.

Now, as to the blizzard, the German has way too many things stacked against him. First is the brutal attrition losses, then you have the auto slashing of combat power (which really goes down hill from there due to the additional attrition). Personally, it does not matter really how far you advance, you will get clobbered by the blizzard. No matter if you push all the way to historical, or if you stop dead in your tracks in Sept 41 and prepare for winter.

I could get by with just the removal of the auto slash combat power. Let the attrition do the dirty work on it's own. God knows it is powerful enough. Make isolated units have a much slower degrade of combat power instead of the instant "we can no longer fight" thing they do now. Then we might start seeing pockets hold out, we will see real Stalingrad style battles, or isolated units would be able to possibly break out of a pocket as they did in real life. But as of now, any unit that gets isolated is toast, dead meat. Especially if it happens in winter. They don't have a prayer because the German cannot even attempt to save them.
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abulbulian
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by abulbulian »

ORIGINAL: randallw

From what I understand the German supply network could not handle all the needs of the frontline troops, so priority was given to the basics, and cold weather gear could not have been moved in major quantities without a decrease in something else flowing forward.

This brings up a topic that hasn't really been talked to death yet: the game models supply problems if you outrun a working railhead, but there's no supply decrease within a railhead based on distance.  That is, the amount of supply on a railhead hex maybe 20 hexes from a permanent supply point is the same as a railhead hex 80 hexes away.  Does it work like that in real life?  Hell, I dunno.


The supply network did start to break down in the mud of Oct and extreme cold weather later in Nov/Dec 41. But the real cause for no winter equipment being sent to the front in late Sept and early Oct, was Hitler forbade it. Hitler insisted the attacks towards Moscow continue and priority was given for the materials needed to continue the offensive using the available transport. Thus, the axis player should maybe be allowed to send some minimal amount of winter equipment to units. This of course would be at the expense of maybe AP and the motor pool. This would be more coding and controversial. An easier solution would be to just considered fort levels when determining attrition and def CV values in blizzard.
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abulbulian
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by abulbulian »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Blizzard is way too severe and the months of Jan and Feb are just wrong in terms of attrition

I have yet to see a screenshot or receive a save from turn 53 that shows the Axis start the 1942 campaign with less men, tanks and aircraft than they had in June 1942. The problem has been that the Divisions' morale and experience levels have been lower, and resulted in an average 1.1 CVs per infantry division shortfall, and this is what the patches have aimed to fix, and if anyone has saves for T24, T39, and T53 for a game played under v5, we will be able to see if the changes have had the desired effect.

I am about to enter the Blizzard as The SU for the first time, so I get to see the other side of the coin, and hopefully get a balanced perspective on the Blizzard.

As to whether the blizzard is turning people off from playing the game, I can only comment from my personal point of view, in that I saw the Blizzard as a challenge that I was not going to let get on top of me, particularly after my first blizzard experience in which AGS evaporated in 4 turns. After 2 further attempts, I figured out a plan that would achieve my objectives, and managed to execute them against the AI and PBEM. The results of my attempts have been documented in the Field Marshal Noob AAR, and I have posted selected AAR pictures of my PBEM game in one of the many other Blizzard threads.


BigAnorak,

There's a very serious flaw in your argument. You are assuming and now imposing historical results in troops strength on all axis players in 1942 irregardless of their strategy in 41. Do you see how wrong this is? So basically if I'm an axis player and don't do the following historical path which was:

- attack hard in Oct/Nov
- become reckless with supply lines
- push troops to extreme fatigue
- little or no concern to digging in for winter (fort'ing)

So if the axis player does, oh let's say the opposite of this late 41 strategy like I have tried and others too, we should have the same depleted forces in spr 42? Really? Does that mean I need to create a Stalingrad situation as axis too in late 42? I'm really so sick and tired of people trying to impose some axis stats from 1942 when I have played 1941 totally different then historical. Sure Big, if you as testers want to test the historical path and see if the #'s match up, that's totally fine. But how many of us are going to play and take the 'historical' path? For example, how many sov players take the historical path and leave large amounts of sov troops forward to get encircled, because the Stalin told them to hold their ground? lol, none that I know of.

My loses in blizzard were insane, considering I did almost all the game allows for in preparing for it. My troops were not exposed, had good supply and supply lines, TOEs were in 80% range, many font line forts, high morale and exp (before bug hit TOE upgrade). None of this mattered for the WitE blizzard mechanics, my troops weer savaged and my loses in 13 turns of blizzard were 1.2 million! Just wrong.

So if the only argument people have for blizzard being 'ok' in WitE is this assumption that axis troops strength should be the same as historical in 1942... we'll you're just not getting it. That only makes sense for building the 1942 scenario.

It just amazes me people are still trying to argue that the first blizzard in winter 41-42 is fine and doesn't need some looking into. Really? these people obviously have not been on the axis side against a competent sov player.
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
kirkgregerson
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by kirkgregerson »

+1 abulbulian

I too don't like to be compared with 1942 historical results when I did many things different than historically occurred in 41. My human vs human game was also some what ended after the blizzard. I was backed into almost Rom by the time spr came.

If the game was going to have to have the same historical results or similar, why even play? Not sure about everybody else, but the term 'game' is something that people should focus on. This is not a simulation and I didn't purchase it for a WW2 eastern front simulation.

I too am looking forward to the day when blizzard is adjusted to be more sensible and realistic. Just adding some consideration for other factors should would be a step in the right direction.

Still waiting to hear from a developer about this topic of first turn blizzard. <crickets> Just to even know their thoughts and plans would be very welcome at this point in time.

I think I'll start a support group for those of us that had to go through this blizzard along with the TOE bugs...nothing could have prepared an axis player for that trauma.
[:(]


PS: let me leave you with a quote from my human sov opponent (keep in mind this was pre-beta 3):

"I thought playing the Russians in 1941/42 would be stressful, it was actually far from it. Being able to counter-attack with great efficiency in 42 was a surprise. I almost feel dirty in how unhistorical it seemed".
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heliodorus04
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

+1 abulbulian

I too don't like to be compared with 1942 historical results when I did many things different than historically occurred in 41. My human vs human game was also some what ended after the blizzard. I was backed into almost Rom by the time spr came.

If the game was going to have to have the same historical results or similar, why even play? Not sure about everybody else, but the term 'game' is something that people should focus on. This is not a simulation and I didn't purchase it for a WW2 eastern front simulation.

I too am looking forward to the day when blizzard is adjusted to be more sensible and realistic. Just adding some consideration for other factors should would be a step in the right direction.

Still waiting to hear from a developer about this topic of first turn blizzard. <crickets> Just to even know their thoughts and plans would be very welcome at this point in time.

I think I'll start a support group for those of us that had to go through this blizzard along with the TOE bugs...nothing could have prepared an axis player for that trauma.
[:(]


PS: let me leave you with a quote from my human sov opponent (keep in mind this was pre-beta 3):

"I thought playing the Russians in 1941/42 would be stressful, it was actually far from it. Being able to counter-attack with great efficiency in 42 was a surprise. I almost feel dirty in how unhistorical it seemed".
While I'm clearly with you and Abul, please be careful when you assume the silence of official development personnel means they are being derelict toward perceived problems and/or possible improvements.

From the developers' standpoint, there is no advantage gained when you come out and say "We agree this is a problem and we are thinking about doing X, Y, or Z to address it in balancing".

Doing so starts a firestorm amongst the community that "A isn't a problem and they're giving in to the cry-babies" or "X is a stupid idea that isn't historical" or "Y isn't nearly sufficient to remedy the problem."

They're definitely watching us duke it out in the forums with our various ideas and perceptions, and I'm sure they're having the same kinds of conversations internally, with factions taking similar sides to those we see in this thread.

I have every confidence that eventually steps will be taken to give the Axis flexibility in Blizzard if they've taken radically different approaches to their 1941 campaign.
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bednarre
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by bednarre »

1) Rebuilding Lines with Wooden Overhead Cover

I guess we both agree that one line could be built if most of the German Army worked on it for 1 week. Once this line is broken (+1 to odds modifier), it is unrelialistic to expect the Wehrmact had the capability under attack to generate a second or third line. If the American Army could not do it in the Battle of the Bulge with a large component of specialized engineers and a huge number of operational trucks, the German Army could not have done it over a much bigger front. Both armies suffered a large number of frost bite cases, interestingly enough! Thus it does not appear to solve the problem if realism is to be preserved.


2) Why Didn't Russian Army Built Plethora of Fortifications in 1941-1942?

Regarding the end of the German offensive capability in 1941 due to Russian fortification pileup in the game, why was this not the historical Russian tactic? Any (non-Maginot) fortification line without strong reserves can be easily penetrated. Classic examples are the D-Day attacks (even Omaha Beach), the Gustav line in May 1944, and the Stalin Line in 1941. Even the imfamous West Wall, which had taken years to build, was quickly breached in several places. In this latter case it was the attacking force which lacked the needed reserves. One a line in penetrated in a few places, available attacking reserves will move in and defeat the whole line. Thus placing half (or more) of ones army in the rear building and occupying massive fortifications was not effective. It was better to use reserves on the front, especially if the tactical ability of the troops were grossly inferior to the enemy.


3) Are the effective of game fortifications too great?

Normally a fortification line is attacked along a few choice spots. The rest of the line, say inside the game hex, would not be attacked. Thus only a small part of the defense gets the combat benefit of the fortification and most of the defensive force does not participate. Perhaps the game does not address this properly. Also, the Germans did create psuedo fortifications out of villages. The following link is excellent for explaining how the German Army survivied in late 1941.
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/ ... asp#winter


4) How to Make German Players Happy

If the actual German Army lost Berlin in May 1945, it is unreasonable to expect a Russian player from doing worse in the current game. Does it really matter if Berlin falls in November 1944 or February 1945? Germany still ends up destroyed, and the German Army will be annihilated. This is true due to the overwhelming manpower and equipment, regardless in Stalingrad had previously been captured or not, as modeled in the game. I understand that there currently is a major inaccuracy in winter 1941 modeling (show stopper), but the next obstacle remaining is in summer 1942 with massive Russian fortications, and I expect this to be a show stopper as well. Then the fortifications will be tweaked, and the German players will dislike ending offensive operations completely by winter 1942. This is properly an accurate simulation of expected capabilities. It seems like a German win should still be possible in 1943+. This is why I recommend looking at both Russian casualties and German strength factors in determing victory, with various time-changing thresholds. These are not that unrealistic, but assume Hitler had been deposed, German attrocities had stopped, and the Western Allies had suffered more severe setbacks. I apologize if you felt I was trivilizing your winter 1941 frustrations.
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abulbulian
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by abulbulian »

heliodorus04,

Was not trying to infer that devs were not caring about the ongoing blizzard discussion or us.&nbsp; Just think it would be nice to hear their feed back.&nbsp; I enjoy hearing from them and their thoughts on how things in the game are modeled.&nbsp; Maybe there's some important bit if info they can share to help us understand the first winter blizzard more.&nbsp; That's all.&nbsp; I know the devs are very pro active to fixing problems that have been identified and validated.&nbsp; patch release have to been done in caution as to avoid regression issues,&nbsp; so I know things need to take the proper processes first.



- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
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abulbulian
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by abulbulian »

ORIGINAL: bednarre

1) Rebuilding Lines with Wooden Overhead Cover

I guess we both agree that one line could be built if most of the German Army worked on it for 1 week. Once this line is broken (+1 to odds modifier), it is unrelialistic to expect the Wehrmact had the capability under attack to generate a second or third line. If the American Army could not do it in the Battle of the Bulge with a large component of specialized engineers and a huge number of operational trucks, the German Army could not have done it over a much bigger front. Both armies suffered a large number of frost bite cases, interestingly enough! Thus it does not appear to solve the problem if realism is to be preserved.


2) Why Didn't Russian Army Built Plethora of Fortifications in 1941-1942?

Regarding the end of the German offensive capability in 1941 due to Russian fortification pileup in the game, why was this not the historical Russian tactic? Any (non-Maginot) fortification line without strong reserves can be easily penetrated. Classic examples are the D-Day attacks (even Omaha Beach), the Gustav line in May 1944, and the Stalin Line in 1941. Even the imfamous West Wall, which had taken years to build, was quickly breached in several places. In this latter case it was the attacking force which lacked the needed reserves. One a line in penetrated in a few places, available attacking reserves will move in and defeat the whole line. Thus placing half (or more) of ones army in the rear building and occupying massive fortifications was not effective. It was better to use reserves on the front, especially if the tactical ability of the troops were grossly inferior to the enemy.


3) Are the effective of game fortifications too great?

Normally a fortification line is attacked along a few choice spots. The rest of the line, say inside the game hex, would not be attacked. Thus only a small part of the defense gets the combat benefit of the fortification and most of the defensive force does not participate. Perhaps the game does not address this properly. Also, the Germans did create psuedo fortifications out of villages. The following link is excellent for explaining how the German Army survivied in late 1941.
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/ ... asp#winter


4) How to Make German Players Happy

If the actual German Army lost Berlin in May 1945, it is unreasonable to expect a Russian player from doing worse in the current game. Does it really matter if Berlin falls in November 1944 or February 1945? Germany still ends up destroyed, and the German Army will be annihilated. This is true due to the overwhelming manpower and equipment, regardless in Stalingrad had previously been captured or not, as modeled in the game. I understand that there currently is a major inaccuracy in winter 1941 modeling (show stopper), but the next obstacle remaining is in summer 1942 with massive Russian fortications, and I expect this to be a show stopper as well. Then the fortifications will be tweaked, and the German players will dislike ending offensive operations completely by winter 1942. This is properly an accurate simulation of expected capabilities. It seems like a German win should still be possible in 1943+. This is why I recommend looking at both Russian casualties and German strength factors in determing victory, with various time-changing thresholds. These are not that unrealistic, but assume Hitler had been deposed, German attrocities had stopped, and the Western Allies had suffered more severe setbacks. I apologize if you felt I was trivilizing your winter 1941 frustrations.

+1
Great analysis bedarre.
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Nothing against Oleg as a Russian (I think he would admit he is still learning), but this AAR is an exception rather than the rule of most AAR's. I would think most of the community is closely watching Jame's two games against Pieter and Flav since Oleg was also a victim of James as well. I do agree that there are things to learn from Emir's AAR as well. I think 2ndACR's game got the ball rolling and Q-Ball's game has really caused it to pick up steam since it was a later version of the game.

James is nasty opponent but nowehere near as nasty as Emir (Emir, not Emil). Still, yes, I do put my hopes in that playing James will show SOME people that Germans are indeed playable, and winnable, and that the game is pretty balanced.

ACR... I have no problems stopping in our first game, and have no problems kinda-stopping him in our second game as well (both me as Soviet).

In the meantime I learned a thing or two myself, and am having a pretty good game with Germans. I am too cautious to boast around the boards, yet. This is the situation in Sept 1941 vs human, he refuses to give up though, I wait to see how will I survive through blizzards and will I have enough offensive strength in spring 1942 to end the war. We'll see, I hope to post more about this particular game sometime...


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karonagames
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by karonagames »

@abulbulian: Yes, maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut, but in terms of having benchmarks to compare my testing to, then all I had to compare against was the historical performance, which was to go all out, pay little attention to fatigue and entrenchment levels, try to get to the December 1st front lines, and see how I came out the other end. And what did I find? An Army that was stronger than it was historically and with a better front line than historically, except in the south. So what conclusions am I supposed to draw? Players have to know what happens if they do follow the historical route, and that was always the target I had in mind.

Trey probably won't be offended by being accused of being an incompetent soviet player as it was his first PBEM campaign as Soviet.

I am not really sure I can see the case for saying that by doing worse in 1941 the Axis deserve to have a better army than they had in 1942. By stopping attacking you are reducing the pressure on the Soviets to allow them to make stronger, better co-ordinated attacks against better organised defences, but you can't take away the fact that the weapons wouldn't fire and the tanks could not be moved when the temperatures went off the scale.

No one in the test team has ever denied that there are issues with the blizzard, but they are mostly related to morale and experience, and not the total number of casualties. The split between KIA/WIA/disabled is out of whack but the total permanent casualty figures are pretty accurate. There is also a first turn spike in casualties, that I have lobbied long and hard to have reduced.

There are several blizzard threads in the development forums, and Joel has made some pretty dramatic suggestions for changes that are being discussed and debated at the moment.
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2ndACR
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by 2ndACR »

Bah, that is my cautious side taking over to a large extent. I never know when that damn mud will show up. Plus, I already know I will have a hard time just defending what I have right now. But that is okay, I have fun against someone who defends and not just run like the wind.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
There are several blizzard threads in the development forums, and Joel has made some pretty dramatic suggestions for changes that are being discussed and debated at the moment.

Are the changes coming soon? Because, as you may see from the above screenshot, I will need to defend Moscow in blizzard, as German!! HELP!!!!!!!!! [:D]
wosung
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by wosung »

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
Just relax and learn to put some facts and meaning behind your posts and maybe you can shake this 'clown' label. Good luck with that and I mean that sincerely.

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
The supply network did start to break down in the mud of Oct and extreme cold weather later in Nov/Dec 41. But the real cause for no winter equipment being sent to the front in late Sept and early Oct, was Hitler forbade it


Mind to give some reference for the Hitler forbade thing? Like, author, book title, page, author’s sources?
wosung
wosung
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by wosung »

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
Just relax and learn to put some facts and meaning behind your posts and maybe you can shake this 'clown' label. Good luck with that and I mean that sincerely.

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
The supply network did start to break down in the mud of Oct and extreme cold weather later in Nov/Dec 41. But the real cause for no winter equipment being sent to the front in late Sept and early Oct, was Hitler forbade it


Mind to give some references for the Hitler forbade thing? Like, author, book title, page, author’s sources?
wosung
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Blizzard is way too severe and the months of Jan and Feb are just wrong in terms of attrition

I have yet to see a screenshot or receive a save from turn 53 that shows the Axis start the 1942 campaign with less men, tanks and aircraft than they had in June 1942. The problem has been that the Divisions' morale and experience levels have been lower, and resulted in an average 1.1 CVs per infantry division shortfall, and this is what the patches have aimed to fix, and if anyone has saves for T24, T39, and T53 for a game played under v5, we will be able to see if the changes have had the desired effect.

I am about to enter the Blizzard as The SU for the first time, so I get to see the other side of the coin, and hopefully get a balanced perspective on the Blizzard.

As to whether the blizzard is turning people off from playing the game, I can only comment from my personal point of view, in that I saw the Blizzard as a challenge that I was not going to let get on top of me, particularly after my first blizzard experience in which AGS evaporated in 4 turns. After 2 further attempts, I figured out a plan that would achieve my objectives, and managed to execute them against the AI and PBEM. The results of my attempts have been documented in the Field Marshal Noob AAR, and I have posted selected AAR pictures of my PBEM game in one of the many other Blizzard threads.


BigAnorak,

There's a very serious flaw in your argument. You are assuming and now imposing historical results in troops strength on all axis players in 1942 irregardless of their strategy in 41. Do you see how wrong this is? So basically if I'm an axis player and don't do the following historical path which was:

- attack hard in Oct/Nov
- become reckless with supply lines
- push troops to extreme fatigue
- little or no concern to digging in for winter (fort'ing)

So if the axis player does, oh let's say the opposite of this late 41 strategy like I have tried and others too, we should have the same depleted forces in spr 42? Really? Does that mean I need to create a Stalingrad situation as axis too in late 42? I'm really so sick and tired of people trying to impose some axis stats from 1942 when I have played 1941 totally different then historical. Sure Big, if you as testers want to test the historical path and see if the #'s match up, that's totally fine. But how many of us are going to play and take the 'historical' path? For example, how many sov players take the historical path and leave large amounts of sov troops forward to get encircled, because the Stalin told them to hold their ground? lol, none that I know of.

My loses in blizzard were insane, considering I did almost all the game allows for in preparing for it. My troops were not exposed, had good supply and supply lines, TOEs were in 80% range, many font line forts, high morale and exp (before bug hit TOE upgrade). None of this mattered for the WitE blizzard mechanics, my troops weer savaged and my loses in 13 turns of blizzard were 1.2 million! Just wrong.

So if the only argument people have for blizzard being 'ok' in WitE is this assumption that axis troops strength should be the same as historical in 1942... we'll you're just not getting it. That only makes sense for building the 1942 scenario.

It just amazes me people are still trying to argue that the first blizzard in winter 41-42 is fine and doesn't need some looking into. Really? these people obviously have not been on the axis side against a competent sov player.


I'd say we would have better luck getting disabled replacement rate being improved.
3% for combat casualties and 7% for non-combat (frostbite, etc) that would help germany have a much more effective 42 army.
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bwheatley
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RE: Winter Idea......Comment

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

+1 abulbulian

I too don't like to be compared with 1942 historical results when I did many things different than historically occurred in 41. My human vs human game was also some what ended after the blizzard. I was backed into almost Rom by the time spr came.

If the game was going to have to have the same historical results or similar, why even play? Not sure about everybody else, but the term 'game' is something that people should focus on. This is not a simulation and I didn't purchase it for a WW2 eastern front simulation.

I too am looking forward to the day when blizzard is adjusted to be more sensible and realistic. Just adding some consideration for other factors should would be a step in the right direction.

Still waiting to hear from a developer about this topic of first turn blizzard. <crickets> Just to even know their thoughts and plans would be very welcome at this point in time.

I think I'll start a support group for those of us that had to go through this blizzard along with the TOE bugs...nothing could have prepared an axis player for that trauma.
[:(]


PS: let me leave you with a quote from my human sov opponent (keep in mind this was pre-beta 3):

"I thought playing the Russians in 1941/42 would be stressful, it was actually far from it. Being able to counter-attack with great efficiency in 42 was a surprise. I almost feel dirty in how unhistorical it seemed".
While I'm clearly with you and Abul, please be careful when you assume the silence of official development personnel means they are being derelict toward perceived problems and/or possible improvements.

From the developers' standpoint, there is no advantage gained when you come out and say "We agree this is a problem and we are thinking about doing X, Y, or Z to address it in balancing".

Doing so starts a firestorm amongst the community that "A isn't a problem and they're giving in to the cry-babies" or "X is a stupid idea that isn't historical" or "Y isn't nearly sufficient to remedy the problem."

They're definitely watching us duke it out in the forums with our various ideas and perceptions, and I'm sure they're having the same kinds of conversations internally, with factions taking similar sides to those we see in this thread.

I have every confidence that eventually steps will be taken to give the Axis flexibility in Blizzard if they've taken radically different approaches to their 1941 campaign.

+1 silence doesn't mean 2by3 isn't listening because they are ;)
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