Picket line's

[5thGuardsTankArmy]

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

[LoBaron]

Variing.

Both sides used small trawler sized ships to get elint or visual reports against naval and air targets in the war.
We don´t have this type of ships in game in the ammount they existed, so using AKLs for such tasks is a viable tactic in my opinion.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

What you're suggesting is technically spying.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

You mean like the Pueblo class AGI's? Formerly known as---you guessed it....AKL's![:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.

So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

You mean like the Pueblo class AGI's? Formerly known as---you guessed it....AKL's![:D]

Steve, wasn't she an ELINT ship in the late 60s? Her original hull was an AKL built as a US Army light freighter in 44. Also, she was not an xAKL, though the point is pretty fine.

Looking for examples where the USN or RN took small civilian freighters and positioned them along likely enemy naval avenues of approach as early warning....

[Capt Hornblower]

I agree with Wirraway and Chickenboy: seems gamey.

[Canoerebel]

Absolutely not gamey. Totally sensible, and the Allies would have done the same if operating under the conditions we do in the game.

In real life, the Allies often knew where the KB was, and when they didn't they usually had a pretty good idea where it wasn't. This allowed the Allies to commit carriers and invasion TFs with relatively little risk of wholesale destruction. Also, the Japanese didn't mass six or eight carriers at a time, which also limited the extent of destruction.

In the game, the Allies have very little information to go on - much less than in real life. It would be folly to send a big carrier TF, battleships, or major invasion TF into hostile waters not knowing where enemy carriers were. To do so would have gotten you sacked in real life. You'd be a joke of a commander. So you instead you use our version of "fishing trawlers" as pickets and flankers. Perfectly sensible and I can't imagine why somebody would object.

Had the Allies in the real war operated under similar conditions, I'm sure they would have used rusty buckets to serve as a picket line. In fact, I bet they did so.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace



has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.

So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.

[Alfred]

The Western democracies did not press gang civilians into fighting on/in front of the frontline. The maritime unions and the public of voting age would have given short shift to any such compulsory press ganging.

In game, devs have clearly stated xAK or xAKL ships are civilian merchantmen. They are not the same as AK ships let alone AKA, as evidenced by their different characteristics in Amphibious TFs.

Military vessels, crewed by military personnel and thus fully subordinated to the military hierarchy, is one thing. Civilians with no appropriate training or equipment, intentionally put in harms way, is another thing entirely.

Particularly for the Allies, there are more than sufficient military assets available for picket duty.

Alfred

[Zigurat666]

Let them do it...its a useless tactic anyways. There's always cake behind the icing you know so just go around them.
Its another way of saying I got some action going on behind this picket,so please Mr. Tojo dont go looking...
Also it builds ship experience for your destroyer fleet running around killing the little roaches.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.

So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.

The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

[SuluSea]

I use low value ships in a picket line all over the map until the shipping lanes are secure, I've never viewed the tactic as gamey. The allies need to do it to secure lines. Spring '42 will  have  many pickets on my map keeping all shipping lanes secure for troop transport. As the air unbrella gets larger in combination with threats dimming in certain areas around the map certain lines will fold . I'd would however call splitting up task forces and overwhelming hexes with single ship targets as gamey but the use of pickets to guard or secure something is fair game. My pickets are spaces minimum 5 hex's. I'll also send out pickets ahead of a big landing if I think it may be carriers about.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve





So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.

The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

Steve, knock it off. I know it's unlikely that you will ever agree with anything I say or suggest online as a potentially gamey workaround with the same 'it's unenforceable' response. I don't intend to settle the debate with you now. I'm responding to the OP's question about my opinions on the game. Full stop.

Don't agree? Fine. If I see that your behavior in the game differs from our core principle founding our game ("Don't be gamey!") then I'll call you on it within our group. Until then, I'd prefer if you not icepick me in the skull about our differences of opinion in this open forum.

Do I trust my opponent? Yeah, generally. Until I get dumped on a bunch of times or repeatedly hounded for 'proof' of illegitimacy on anything I suggest is off color.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.

The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

Steve, knock it off. I know it's unlikely that you will ever agree with anything I say or suggest online as a potentially gamey workaround with the same 'it's unenforceable' response. I don't intend to settle the debate with you now. I'm responding to the OP's question about my opinions on the game. Full stop.

Don't agree? Fine. If I see that your behavior in the game differs from our core principle founding our game ("Don't be gamey!") then I'll call you on it within our group. Until then, I'd prefer if you not icepick me in the skull about our differences of opinion in this open forum.

Do I trust my opponent? Yeah, generally. Until I get dumped on a bunch of times or repeatedly hounded for 'proof' of illegitimacy on anything I suggest is off color.

Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't "icepicking you" as you so colorfully put it. I was disagree with you. Clearly you don't want to hear disgreements from someone that your engaged in a PBEM with. Fine. I'll stay off "your" threads.[:(]

[Cap Mandrake]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! The President called for civility......oh..never mind.

[bradfordkay]

Since this isn't the War Room, I guess that they're allowed to fight... 

[Hortlund]

Using civilian ships as pickets = very gamey
Using military ships as pickets = completely ok