Tweaking the Japanese/Allied Economies

[treespider]

I plan on driving off the edge...wonder what I'll find when I get there?

IMO this is something that will require a fair amount of work...and perhaps the return will not be worth the investment...but I won't know until i take the ride.

Maybe I can enlist some help for the more mundane tasks and questions...

For example JWE-

If I were not to accelerate or stop construction of any ships in the DBB database would all of the vessels arrive in game when they apparently did historically?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: treespider
If I were not to accelerate or stop construction of any ships in the DBB database would all of the vessels arrive in game when they apparently did historically?

Yes, kinda-sorta. So long as you have the Shipyard Points and haven’t messed with ship Dur. We’ve always just left it alone, and haven’t run short yet.

Everybody gets a freeby till the arrival date = 10 x ShipDur. Then they require [ShipDur] Shipyard Points each day. Each day the sum of the Shipyards gets dumped into the Shipyard Point pools. So long as the pool and daily sum Points is > the daily Durs, everything just perks along. In some time periods, the combination of Point pools and daily Shipyard Points are way bigger than the daily Durs. In other time periods, daily Durs are way bigger that daily Points. One reason to maintain the Point pools.

As I said, we’ve never run short yet. But then we’ve never really cranked through to a campaign end-game either.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: treespider
If I were not to accelerate or stop construction of any ships in the DBB database would all of the vessels arrive in game when they apparently did historically?

Yes, kinda-sorta. So long as you have the Shipyard Points and haven’t messed with ship Dur. We’ve always just left it alone, and haven’t run short yet.

Everybody gets a freeby till the arrival date = 10 x ShipDur. Then they require [ShipDur] Shipyard Points each day. Each day the sum of the Shipyards gets dumped into the Shipyard Point pools. So long as the pool and daily sum Points is > the daily Durs, everything just perks along. In some time periods, the combination of Point pools and daily Shipyard Points are way bigger than the daily Durs. In other time periods, daily Durs are way bigger that daily Points. One reason to maintain the Point pools.

As I said, we’ve never run short yet. But then we’ve never really cranked through to a campaign end-game either.

Well, what were the projected arrival dastes prior to Midway? My point being that the RL arrival dates of the Unro's and Taiho may actually be accelerated dates not base dates. In other words did the RL Japanese accelerate the CV production?

[inqistor]

As I understand, goal is to force Japan to use more of its Merchant Fleet in more places. If you just increase needed input from places, which Japan already transports from, that will not change much, except fuel consumption.
Consider this:
Japan sends protected convoy Palembang-Osaka. If you increase demand in Japan, that would only mean, that those convoys will use more ships. If Allies are hunting with SSs for those convoys, there is completely NO DIFFERENCE, if there are 10, or 50 transport ships (unless they somehow manage to target 30 SSs on one convoy).

[JWE]

Well, now that the preteens are here, I'm outa here.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Well, now that the preteens are here, I'm outa here.

[&o][&o][:D]

[Bliztk]

I would do an approach of reducing the HI to 75% while increasing the LI to generate the same supply. Currently the Japanese player does not have the logistical problems, because he has a ton of HI points to increase the naval/engine/aircraft production.

Other idea could be reducing the number of HI points, but increasing the supply output to 3, while increasing the input. So a HI point can pay it`s supply cost in 1 year instead of 1.5 in increased production.

Just my two cents.

[Blackhorse]

Another reminder why it would be helpful to reduce/ eliminate supplies from refineries:

Nemo121
Stand in southern Sumatra. That's the fulcrum and, most unusually, for fulcrums a self-supporting fortress which won't require you to risk ships resupplying it. It produces 1,000 tons of supply per day. That's enough to keep 10 divisions in supply, build forts and keep your fighter force and a moderate number of torpedo bombers in supply.

IRL, An isolated Sumatra would have had a hard time sustaining 1 division, let alone 10.

More broadly, I think Andrew Brown put his finger on a major cause of the merchant shipping surplus -- that, with only one type of supply in game, all movement is of net generated supplies, not gross.

So even though Australia was a net exporter of military supplies, there were many types of supplies and equipment it did not produce, and had to import. The game engine can only show that Australia was a net exporter, so no shipping movement into Australia is required.

Here is one possible kludge, working within the limits of the existing system, to try to capture the historical two-way flow of sea traffic from net exporters of supply:

For areas like Australia, reduce the amount of HI/LI producing supply. Increase resources. Increase LI on the West Coast or off-map to match the growth in resources. Places like Sumatra and Burma should have de minimus supply production.

This would help capture the rhythm of the Pacific that JWE was talking about -- oil and resources moving home to Japan, and fuel and supply moving forward, and Allies contributing to the war effort but depending to a greater or lesser degree on the USA's larder. Obviously, this is more than a tweak, and abstracts resources beyond AB's design.

[treespider]

Well in the spirit of reader's digest band-aids...

One alternative I am going to explore... eliminate supply from HI altogether. LI will be used to produce supply.

So in the case of Japan the Japanese will have to transport resources to HI centers to insure HI points...and they will have to transport resources to LI to insure supply production.

Obviously will require adjustment of the starting numbers of centers as well as inputs and outputs.

[treespider]

Refresh my memory do resources flow from Hokkaido to Honshu?

[witpqs]

I believe I saw people post "yes" but I haven't played Japan and can't say that I remember for a certainty.

[treespider]

Hmmm...
My new quick and dirty analysis...were not going to make any changes to Fuel except eliminate supply from Refineries.

Stock AE:
LI Input - 15 RP
HI Input - 20 RP
LI Output - 1 Sup
HI Output - 2 Sup, 2 HI

Japanase Home Islands (Daily)
LI - 7900 - Req. 118500 RP - Produce 7900 Sup
HI - 6160 - Req. 123200 RP - Produce 12320 Sup
Total RP Req. = 241,700
Res Cntr - 9770 - produce 195400 RP
Shortfall = 46300 RP/day = 16,899,500 RP/yr
Total Supply produced in Home Islands = 20,220

My suggested changes -

As stated eliminate supply from refineries

EDIT: Because the Civilian Economy is encompassed by the economic model HI and LI should not be "shut off".

Mod AE:
LI Input - 20 RP
HI Input - 15 RP
LI Output - 2 Sup
HI Output - 0 Sup, 2 HI

Japanaese Home Islands (Daily)
LI - 7900 - Req. 158000 RP - Produce 15800 Sup
HI - 6160 - Req. 92400 RP - Produce 0 Sup
Total RP Req. = 250,400
Res Cntr - 9770 - produce 195400 RP
Shortfall = 55,000 RP/day = 20,075,000 RP/yr

You can make up the 4420 pt supply difference produced in the Home Islands with daily allotments if you feel these are necessary...

As a result of the change Japan would have to transport in roughly 20% more resources...or 3,175,500 pts...and because LI and HI are now both necessary they absolutely have to keep both running.

Historically Japan imported 20,000,000 tons of stuff in 1941


As far as daily effects on supply output from Industry in other areas...from what I have examined...

Manchuria
Stock Output = 1100 supply
Mod Output = 1080 supply

Java
Stock Output = 500 supply (200 of which from refineries)
Mod Output = 360 supply

Occupied China
Stock Output = 640 supply
Mod Output = 560 supply


I think this is going into Treespider's Grand Campaign.

[LoBaron]

Most probably a stupid question but where does the RP req. difference come from?

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Refresh my memory do resources flow from Hokkaido to Honshu?

Without ships, definitely no.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Most probably a stupid question but where does the RP req. difference come from?

Please clarify...

[LoBaron]

Please ignore. Early in the morning in Austria and I was reading research points instead of ressource points.

[treespider]

Looking at Australia...

Stock AE Australia about breaks even in RP requirements. In other words it produces about what it needs and as a result generates roughly 5000 supply points per day.

In my mod Australia would produce even more supply, about 5600 supply points, however Australia would need to import roughly 9600 resource points per day to keep their Industry humming along.... that translates into imports of 3,504,000 tons/points of stuff per year...Not sure exactly what Australia imported but their official history has a whole chapter related to "The Problem of Limited Resources"


And from here:Crisis in Shipping

A supplement to coastal shipping was the use of overseas vessels for
carriage between Australian ports . The Australian chartering programme
had been originally aimed at, especially, finding ships for exports . But in
the circumstances of 1942 it was logical to use some of these, for part of
the time, in coastal traffic, and when such ships travelled between Australian ports as part of an overseas voyage to use empty space for shipment
between those ports . During 1942, of the 3,800,000 total tonnage carrie d
by chartered ships, nearly 2,000,000 was coastal cargo.

This traffic is not represented in game...so the 9600 point shortfall doesn't seem all that bad...of course it could be mitigated by adjusting the LI in Australia downward...which would lessen the RP demand and maintain supply output at Stock AE levels.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Looking at Australia...

Stock AE Australia about breaks even in RP requirements. In other words it produces about what it needs and as a result generates roughly 5000 supply points per day.

In my mod Australia would produce even more supply, about 5600 supply points, however Australia would need to import roughly 9600 resource points per day to keep their Industry humming along.... that translates into imports of 3,504,000 tons/points of stuff per year...Not sure exactly what Australia imported but their official history has a whole chapter related to "The Problem of Limited Resources"

What incentive would the Allied player have to ship resources to Australia once the Malay Barrier falls?

If the Allies have both surplus resources and surplus supplies off-map or on the West Coast, then the overwhelming incentive is to ship supplies only at 10% the load cost of moving RPs (if I understand your mod aright, LI will convert 20 RPs to 2 supply). If the merchants have no supply to carry, then there would be a reason to export resources to Australia. Do you intend to substantial reduce allied supply generation in your mod?

[Blackhorse]

. . . and what do you propose to do about on-map HI production for the allies?

If HI no longer produces supply it has no benefit for the Allies. A smart Allied player will turn off HI production.

One option, (you?) mentioned before in the thread, is to damage all the Allied HI at start, so Japan has to repair it to use it. I think that works, but do you also want to rebalance resource points to reduce the surplus the Allies will have now that they don't need them for HI?

I salute you for tackling this project. [&o]

For all its shortcomings, the AE economic engine is actually well-balanced. There are wheels within wheels to be adjusted if you choose to tinker with the machine.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: treespider

Looking at Australia...

Stock AE Australia about breaks even in RP requirements. In other words it produces about what it needs and as a result generates roughly 5000 supply points per day.

In my mod Australia would produce even more supply, about 5600 supply points, however Australia would need to import roughly 9600 resource points per day to keep their Industry humming along.... that translates into imports of 3,504,000 tons/points of stuff per year...Not sure exactly what Australia imported but their official history has a whole chapter related to "The Problem of Limited Resources"

What incentive would the Allied player have to ship resources to Australia once the Malay Barrier falls?

If the Allies have both surplus resources and surplus supplies off-map or on the West Coast, then the overwhelming incentive is to ship supplies only at 10% the load cost of moving RPs (if I understand your mod aright, LI will convert 20 RPs to 2 supply). If the merchants have no supply to carry, then there would be a reason to export resources to Australia. Do you intend to substantial reduce allied supply generation in your mod?

There would be no incentive other than the fact that they would lose some supply production in Australia, and would have to make up the difference in lost supply production.

With the current game mechanics I see no way to provide the incentive you seek.