Japanese ASW

[Chris21wen]

Jan 44 against the AI.

Over the past 4-6 months game time, I think since the last official upgrade, I sufferd heavy sub damage/losses to Japanese ship ASW. It has come to head over the last three turns, 3 subs lost, one each turn. All have had better than average skipper, all have been in deep water, all have been on patrol off coasts spending no more than 1 day in a location.

Question is has anyone else noticed this and is it normal or has they been a tweak somewhere that's upset the balance? Off course I could just be unlucky as I was at PH when I lost 7 BB's

[khyberbill]

I haven't seen any change in two separate PBEM's. In fact, one foe is moaning about the lack of effectiveness of his ASW.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I haven't seen any change in two separate PBEM's. In fact, one foe is moaning about the lack of effectiveness of his ASW.

Try castor troys AAR. [:D]

Seems pretty certain Japanese ASW, or at least the super-Es, is way too effective in the late war.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I haven't seen any change in two separate PBEM's. In fact, one foe is moaning about the lack of effectiveness of his ASW.

Try castor troys AAR. [:D]

Seems pretty certain Japanese ASW, or at least the super-Es, is way too effective in the late war.

please don´t remind me... [8|]

"late" war Japanese escorts like the E classes that are available form 44 on are nearly matching British destroyers in terms of ASW efficiency. If the Japanese player isn´t comletely off the line then the sub war is completely loopsided from 44 on. It´s not the year where Allied subs are going to sink the most ships (as they did in real life IIRC) but the year where the Allied are going to run out of subs when they keep encountering these E. A Japanese destroyer is a fart compared to what these E are in the G A M E. In real life, they were able to only sink twice as many Allied subs as were sunk by Japanese MERCHANTS!!!

there just aren´t enough PBEM that even make it into 44 but everyone spending an hour trying out late war E in a test vs subs will soon find out how borked it is - not the way these ships look like as that´s surely correct, but the way they perform in the game. Overall, I find the subwar having made a big step forward from WITP though, because in the first two years it seems to be quite realistic. Would it go on like this and would the Japanese not have those E with their unrealistic super performance I guess every Japanese player would have to fold weapons in 44 though so perhaps it´s a game design decision, who knows. If you start losing three or more subs a day to super E then you also start shaking your head. And to preempt any question or tip, yes, the subs are moving, are not in shallow or base hexes and are not having high detection levels (if any).

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Question is has anyone else noticed this and is it normal or has they been a tweak somewhere that's upset the balance? Off course I could just be unlucky as I was at PH when I lost 7 BB's

I've seen it too. Mostly from the E class. In my first game I finally sent all my subs--about 70--back to PH and tied them up for several months. The losses per day were staggering. I finished off the IJN merchant marine with carrier raids.

[crsutton]

It depends on your opponent and how well he adjusts to the ASW war. However, my opponent has proven quite well that he can subdue all of my Allied sub efforts with an effective use of Air, ASW and large convoys. I have yet to face the super late war ASW ships but don't look forward to it. But it does not matter, a good Japanese player can pretty much take care of things anyways. I don't put much stock in my subs for this reason.

[Canoerebel]

In my game with Miller, which went to mid 1945, his ASW was incredibly powerful. I lost hundreds of subs. It seems like things ramped up in early or mid 1943 and never let up. My impression is that just about the time the very impotent American sub force gets some teeth, Japanese ASW goes uber thus neutralizing the threat. Unless something has changed greatly since that game, I do not expect a whole lot from Allied submarines in my two newer games.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my game with Miller, which went to mid 1945, his ASW was incredibly powerful. I lost hundreds of subs. It seems like things ramped up in early or mid 1943 and never let up. My impression is that just about the time the very impotent American sub force gets some teeth, Japanese ASW goes uber thus neutralizing the threat. Unless something has changed greatly since that game, I do not expect a whole lot from Allied submarines in my two newer games.

In 42 Allied subs do almost nothing, up till mid 43 now, Allied subs are hitting things, but they generally are hit in turn and return home badly damaged after getting, on average, 1 torpedo hit on something.

I'm anticipating a window between Sep 43 and Jan 44 where Allied torpedo dud rate is 10% but before the 1944 ASW kicks in where they might be more lethal, looks like in 1944 though Allied subs are going to be greased.

I think this is in error and should be addressed in a patch, its nothing to do with superior ahistorical ASW tactics by human players I think. The experience bonus to ASW in 1944 is too generous, possibly across the board, and the routine seems to be a straightforward linear 'by number of ASW devices' as well which seems to end up too good for the bristling late war ASW platforms.

Maybe a DB change will do it, arent depth charges given an accuracy in the database? Maybe reducing it will do.

Incidentally, I noticed spigot mortars like the Hedgehog seem crap, its depth charges that get the kills. Shouldnt depth charges be only semi-effective and spigot mortars be the real killers of submerged submarines?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my game with Miller, which went to mid 1945, his ASW was incredibly powerful. I lost hundreds of subs. It seems like things ramped up in early or mid 1943 and never let up. My impression is that just about the time the very impotent American sub force gets some teeth, Japanese ASW goes uber thus neutralizing the threat. Unless something has changed greatly since that game, I do not expect a whole lot from Allied submarines in my two newer games.

You know in a roundabout way, you (I mean we [;)]) many have contributed to this.

Remember back in the day when Japanese subs were slaying our Allied DDs. We bitched hard about this and they made changes that made hitting a DD with a torpedo very hard. Unfortunately now that we are later in the game, I have come to realize this this is hurting my Allied subs. Apparently the patch changes made it very difficult to hit any escort type of ship with a torpedo-including every old, slow, non radar having, escort wannabe that Japan can build! My typical sub attack now usualy involves an attack vs a well escorted medium to large convoy that more often than not targets a lowly PB or E type ship, then misses, then results in my sub getting pounded after wasting a fish.

I am seeing convoys with tankers all the time but rarely get a shot at one. It is all made worse by the fact that I can't sink any patrol vessels either.

[Stvitus2002]

It will not solve the "Super E" issue, but i believe the Balao & Tench class subs
should have a durability of 40 since they had a 400' test depth.
Good thing that AE comes with an Editor[:)]





WO 0/0

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Remember back in the day when Japanese subs were slaying our Allied DDs. We bitched hard about this and they made changes that made hitting a DD with a torpedo very hard. Unfortunately now that we are later in the game, I have come to realize this this is hurting my Allied subs. Apparently the patch changes made it very difficult to hit any escort type of ship with a torpedo-including every old, slow, non radar having, escort wannabe that Japan can build! My typical sub attack now usualy involves an attack vs a well escorted medium to large convoy that more often than not targets a lowly PB or E type ship, then misses, then results in my sub getting pounded after wasting a fish.

I am seeing convoys with tankers all the time but rarely get a shot at one. It is all made worse by the fact that I can't sink any patrol vessels either.

I don't think that is really in error, I'm fine with subs not being effective when torpedoing an E or a DD.

It's the Es and DDs being too effective against the sub which is the issue. I wouldn't want to see, in 1945, viciously bloody E/SS duels where subs are sinking Es and being sunk in turn, which is what would happen presumably if you returned subs to how they once were. I don't think that is correct, either.

Maybe have subs go for cargo ships more than the escorts, right now they do seem to love attacking escorts a bit too much IMO.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Remember back in the day when Japanese subs were slaying our Allied DDs. We bitched hard about this and they made changes that made hitting a DD with a torpedo very hard. Unfortunately now that we are later in the game, I have come to realize this this is hurting my Allied subs. Apparently the patch changes made it very difficult to hit any escort type of ship with a torpedo-including every old, slow, non radar having, escort wannabe that Japan can build! My typical sub attack now usualy involves an attack vs a well escorted medium to large convoy that more often than not targets a lowly PB or E type ship, then misses, then results in my sub getting pounded after wasting a fish.

I am seeing convoys with tankers all the time but rarely get a shot at one. It is all made worse by the fact that I can't sink any patrol vessels either.

I don't think that is really in error, I'm fine with subs not being effective when torpedoing an E or a DD.

It's the Es and DDs being too effective against the sub which is the issue. I wouldn't want to see, in 1945, viciously bloody E/SS duels where subs are sinking Es and being sunk in turn, which is what would happen presumably if you returned subs to how they once were. I don't think that is correct, either.

Maybe have subs go for cargo ships more than the escorts, right now they do seem to love attacking escorts a bit too much IMO.

Well my real issue is the targeting priority of Allied subs. They now shoot at the crappy escorts when real Allied doctrine was to target valuable tankers and merchants over escorts. As it is now the best Japanese ASW defense is escorted convoys as Allied subs will pass up tankers to shoot and usually miss at escorts. Historically, Allies subs had plenty of sucess at putting DDs and smaller escorts under as well-when they wanted to. It is a different story for Japanese subs vs Allied escorts due to superior ASW tactics and equipment. However, I really would be happy if my subs just shot at the right ships.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my game with Miller, which went to mid 1945, his ASW was incredibly powerful. I lost hundreds of subs. It seems like things ramped up in early or mid 1943 and never let up. My impression is that just about the time the very impotent American sub force gets some teeth, Japanese ASW goes uber thus neutralizing the threat. Unless something has changed greatly since that game, I do not expect a whole lot from Allied submarines in my two newer games.

my subs performed quite well until late 43 / early 44 when the last time the ASW experience adjustment kicks in. This pretty much has to be at the same time when the super E are available which sink everything in range at will with their crappy exp in the 40-50 I guess.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my game with Miller, which went to mid 1945, his ASW was incredibly powerful. I lost hundreds of subs. It seems like things ramped up in early or mid 1943 and never let up. My impression is that just about the time the very impotent American sub force gets some teeth, Japanese ASW goes uber thus neutralizing the threat. Unless something has changed greatly since that game, I do not expect a whole lot from Allied submarines in my two newer games.

In 42 Allied subs do almost nothing, up till mid 43 now, Allied subs are hitting things, but they generally are hit in turn and return home badly damaged after getting, on average, 1 torpedo hit on something.

I'm anticipating a window between Sep 43 and Jan 44 where Allied torpedo dud rate is 10% but before the 1944 ASW kicks in where they might be more lethal, looks like in 1944 though Allied subs are going to be greased.

I think this is in error and should be addressed in a patch, its nothing to do with superior ahistorical ASW tactics by human players I think. The experience bonus to ASW in 1944 is too generous, possibly across the board, and the routine seems to be a straightforward linear 'by number of ASW devices' as well which seems to end up too good for the bristling late war ASW platforms.

Maybe a DB change will do it, arent depth charges given an accuracy in the database? Maybe reducing it will do.

Incidentally, I noticed spigot mortars like the Hedgehog seem crap, its depth charges that get the kills. Shouldnt depth charges be only semi-effective and spigot mortars be the real killers of submerged submarines?

In regards to the mentioned timeframe, this is pretty much what happened in my PBEM vs. Rainer79. My subs weren´t crippling but probably have sunk nearly as many ships as the Japanese were building at the same time so more or less they were kept at the same stage they have been when war broke out (at least I hope so). With the super E appearance, the sub war came to a halt, doesn´t matter in this PBEM as I´m sitting in the SRA anyway so the Japanese got ample ships without use for them now.

The mortars, hedgehogs and all that stuff isn´t in the game what they seem to have been in real life, both sides are sinking ships with depth charges more or less exclusively in the game. While an accuracy change in the db might work for the super E with their 12, 14 or more Type 2 DC you would have to create an own Type 2 DC for these ships because otherwise you would make IJN DD with Type 2 DC useless. I have no problem at all with the performance of IJN DD, this seems quite reasonable also compared to what they did in real life, but what the super E are capable of has got nothing to do with realism or what the Japanese were able to do with those ships. If someone thinks that´s not true then I wonder why these 200+ super E haven´t sunk the whole Allied submarine fleet in 44 as they were surely used. And it does not take much skill to create convoys with some escorts or 4 ship ASW TFs consisting of these E set to patrol somewhere.

[Sredni]

I'm into may 45 vs AI and my subs losses are well over twice historical due to the E's. By the time I hit august I'm guessing I'll have lost at least 3 times the historical sub losses. I'm losing them faster then new ones are appearing for sure, so my sub coverage is getting smaller as time goes by heh.

The thing that gets me is the 17 asw rating on some of the E's I've seen sunk (I do occasionally sink one). My best asw are the DE's with 11 asw rating. I've seen single e boats go walking down the picket line I've built around japan sinking a sub each day's turn (sometimes two per turn lol) sailing all the way by okinawa which I hold and then sailing back. completely immune to the divebombers I've got stationed there (they won't launch against these single e patrols, I've given up on them), and my DD patrols can never seem to catch them.

My subs do patrols, always in deep water, with at least one hex of deep water on each side (usually. there are some area's this just isn't possible), and they also swing out to sea away from land on their 3rd leg to hopefully decrease their exposure levels.

I'm kinda numb at this point tbh. I no longer really care about my subs. They're like the allied kamikazes.

[Shark7]

Did this discussion not come up before, and was the general consensus that the 'Super E' of the late ware is due to the number of ASW mounts more than anything else? However, this ships did historically have quite a few DC throwers.

One could modify the results by adding in a modifier, however that would take a coding change.

However, is the problem not so much that the DDs and Es are attacking, but rather that the Allied subs are targeting the escorts rather than the merchant ships? Perhaps a tweak of the target acquisition logic would help...they should still attack warships, but perhaps increase the chance they will bypass the escort for the tanker/AK/AP?

[Sredni]

My subs seem to go after the tankers first vs the E's. About the only place I can reliably find cargo/tanker ships is up the east coast on a route to the northern island and my subs usually shoot at the tankers before being sunk by the E's. My subs do still shoot at E's a lot, but those groups seem to be pure asw groups without any cargo ships.

[JWE]

A lot of good comments and suggestions here. Many of them, and a few more have already been done in DaBabes mod and have been ported into the Reluctant Admiral mod, so there's lots of playing it that have seen significantly more rational results.

As to code changes, I'll resist them. As ya'll are aware many code changes have been made to address particular issues that freaked people out. As ya'll are also aware, while these changes may have helped the specific issue, because everything is inter-woven, the changes broke two or three other, unanticipated, things.

The issue can be (and has been) addressed in data. If one really cares, one may check out what has been done in this area in daBabes mod. It includes explanations as to how the changes comport with the algorithm.

Not likely to be in a future data patch either. I wouldn't mind, but those are a serious PITA and since the data elements are not strictly, precisely, historical, one can imagine the hysterical hissy fit some people might have. Doubt the powers that be would want to put up with the hassle.

DaBabes is not a 'what if' mod. It's a 'development' mod. Over 500 people are playing it, including many folks who post on this board. So far, we haven't had this problem crop up since we put the data fix in place about six months ago.

[bradfordkay]

The only problem is that some of us have considerable time invested in a game already such that we are reluctant to restart unless absolutely necessary. I guess that I'll just have to try to find a work-around... 

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
However, is the problem not so much that the DDs and Es are attacking, but rather that the Allied subs are targeting the escorts rather than the merchant ships? Perhaps a tweak of the target acquisition logic would help...they should still attack warships, but perhaps increase the chance they will bypass the escort for the tanker/AK/AP?

Maybe this simulates protecting of transports by escort (by getting their hits)?
Actually seems that "Captain chooses to not shot at this target" is not that good idea after all, because SSs are returning home damaged with lots of remaining torpedoes.