Winter Idea......Comment

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.

Strong words, but I basically agree with you, although it felt like that for me from Day 1.

I gave up playing vs. the AI long ago, but I do enjoy the PBEM experience. The main problem is that the war is basically over by '42, even in PBEM mode.

My list of issues is much longer (tm.asp?m=2653027) and the devs seem to just ignore me - I wasn't polite enough for their tastes.

Great game concept, lovely visual presentation and game dynamics, some serious bugs that are being addressed and some major design issues that nobody wants to deal with - all you hear is "it's WAD"...

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well, isn't one of the problems obvious from what you wrote - that snow and blizz turns are just too different, like night and day, when in reality they are pretty similar. And they are applied over ALL map, every single hex. My last game looked so contrived and gamey. October, Germans stop. 5 turns of mud, not one attack. Last two turns of mud, Russians crawling like zombies towards me, they are not attacking because they have psychic powers so they know what is about to happen so why waste energy attacking. First turn of blizzard: 99 attacks (90% successful). Forts falling down like cards. Very contrived, gamey and artificial.

Simplified weather model that applies mud accross all map (no hex is spared), then blizzard in same manner, is in BIG part to blame.

Then after mud we have this blizzard, that is so easily abused by Sov player, lasts for three months over every single hex etc.

To me the biggest problem is the weather model.

- We need more randomness in weather.
- More "granulation", difference between hexes or far more weather zones.
- Less pre-programmed weather.
- Less difference between snow and blizz.
- Blizzard lasting NO MORE than 5 turns UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES. 13 turns of this silliness turns even the best games into comedy.

100% correct

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

ORIGINAL: Zebedee
Forgive a silly question, but what game penalties do the Soviets suffer in winter and do they adequately reflect the difficulties the SU had both in movement and supplying units (outside of inherent logistic weakness) and the non-combat losses taken?

Movement penalties apply to both sides

These are not "penalties" per se, just the regular rules for moving over specific terrain. You don't expect them to fly over snow and ice etc? [;)]

[Mynok]

3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker

This has been corrected.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.

Guys... if you are not satisfied with Barbarossa (for whatever personal reasons) there is 1942-1945 campaign provided... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Angelo]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.

Strong words, but I basically agree with you, although it felt like that for me from Day 1.

I gave up playing vs. the AI long ago, but I do enjoy the PBEM experience. The main problem is that the war is basically over by '42, even in PBEM mode.

My list of issues is much longer (tm.asp?m=2653027) and the devs seem to just ignore me - I wasn't polite enough for their tastes.

Great game concept, lovely visual presentation and game dynamics, some serious bugs that are being addressed and some major design issues that nobody wants to deal with - all you hear is "it's WAD"...

Agreed. [:(]

It will be a long time (next expansion maybe) that the campaign game(s) will be worth playing. Way too many problems.

I do find the shorter scenario's interesting. The victory conditions are more attainable and the balance issues more managable. Hopefully there will be more and better scenarios coming.

However I purchased the game because of the grand campaign not the scenarios. [:@] (I was an avid War in Europe (SPI) fanboy!)

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Guys... if you are not satisfied with Barbarossa (for whatever personal reasons) there is 1942-1945 campaign provided...

In 42 scenario Germans have atrocious starting positions that spell "rape me". Of course, they were historically like that.

What I am trying to say is, FOR ME main reason to play 41 full campaign is not to win outright, but rather the fact I believe I can get BETTER than history German positions by spring 42, then slowly retreat and win on points in 45.

However, current mechanics prevent the German player from getting better positions by spring 42. Read the AARs, even the Germans that played excellent campaign in 41, that deserved to win the game in 42, were pushed back to the ridicolous extent during winter, making their advances pointless.

GC is unplayable currently, but hey, I blame myself for jumping into it too early. Game as complex as this needs months and months to mature, so.... I have hope.

[PeeDeeAitch]

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.

[Senno]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.

+1.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.

I play(ed) two games vs human under those circumstances, and those are the two I refer to when I say I cancelled them due to blizz silliness. I just didn't write the AARs.

In German game I took Moscow, Lenin and Harkov, with ALL industry in Moscow and Harkow (most industrialized cities on the map) and about half in Lenin. That huge T-34 factory is GONE. Il-2 factories in Moscow gone, etc.

(Now I admit I did that due to "superhuman summer German" syndrome, which is also a problem, but not for this thread)

I truely believe that under those circumstances Sov position should be so bad as to lead to auto victory or simply human player giving up. If he continues, the only reasonable ending should be German victory in 42, I see no realistically possible other outcome.

First turn of blizz comes. 64 Sov attacks end in Axis retreat, 1 in rout, 1 in surrender, 4 are hold. Level 3 forts with SS divs turn into a pile of scrap. Enough said. I simply refuse to play that joke of a game (I admire Q-Ball for his tenacity to suffer for the sake of science but I don't have that in me [:D]). By the end of this blizz comedy I would probably be back on Dnepr....

My other PBEM is as Sov - I had no trouble evacing factories, my opponent advaced somewhat further than in our previous game but I promise I would have slaughtered him come bilzzards much worse than I did in our previous game (see 2ndACR vs Oleg in AAR section). To be fair, I stopped both games, I don't want to play this winter comedy from either side.

I may write up more detailed AAR if I get the promise that based on our sacrifice in the name of science something will actually change [:D]

[Mynok]

You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.

You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])

[randallw]

I am not quite sure that destroying factories in two or three heavy urban hexes, which the Soviets managed to evac in real events, will break the back of their equipment production.

We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.

You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])

You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: randallw
We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.

You mean how well the recover on the Dnepr, pushed back 30 hexes, or how well they recover somewhere else?

Winter mechanics are huge problem before we even get to the issue (or non issue) of German recovery.

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: randallw

I am not quite sure that destroying factories in two or three heavy urban hexes, which the Soviets managed to evac in real events, will break the back of their equipment production.

We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.

and whats in the factories...aircraft noone uses... tanks that strain the motor pool, armoured cars,...even armament factories is no problem with the late war excess

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.

Just for the record, I am not whining about developers not listening.

In fact I am sure they are listening, and I do hope the GC will be playable one day. In fact I clearly stated I blame *myself* for jumping into GC this early, when I should have known that games as complex as this take months if not years to polish.

But that does not change the fact that the GC in it's current state is IMO indeed unplayable. It's the 41-winter 42 period that is unplayable, the rest of the campaign(s) might be OK for all I know.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.

You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])

You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.

What really baffles me is WHY we need to "overwhelm them with evidence". It's not as if Matrix, Gary or the testers are new to this type of game, to WW2 or to the East Front. Why are we even having this discussion three months in?

[Redmarkus5]

I could ask how the game got launched with such obvious and fundamental issues (AI logic and GC winter effects), but I don't want to upset anyone, so I won't.

[cookie monster]

Im sure they'll iron out all the creases like they did with War in the Pacific Admirals Edition. I think there doing a good job considering how small 2by3 are.