Dispatches from OKH: Q-Ball (Axis) v. Von Beeanie (SOV)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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ComradeP
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by ComradeP »

So you tell me, is my opponent "competent" or not, or is it irrelevant because the winter modelling is broken? Latter option gets my vote

Whether he's competent or not would depend on his and your losses, terrain captured is less important unless it was a lot more than the historical "benchmark". Your description of the cities you captured implies that at the least his chosen defensive strategy was not successful.

Like I said: the difference between historical Axis TOE's of 50% or lower with CV's of 4-5 at best, or TOE's at 80-90% with a CV of around 7 that gets halved isn't too significant. Currently, it's quite possible the game overcompensates for the ahistorical replacements the Axis seem to get (we're still trying to figure out what's causing that, Trey and I can't seem to figure it out) and thus higher TOE's by slashing them by a too significant figure, but the first blizzard turns would be at least just as bad with 30-50% TOE units.
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janh
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
The inexperienced German players also maul their opponents during the summer. No rocket science, eh? [;)]

I conclude the Germans should get some during the blizzard, right...

I simply disagree: in numerous AARs the Russians without having trained in many PBEM games managed a reasonable extraction in summer 41 and ended up stronger than their historical counterparts since they do not have to repeat stoic holding actions ending in huge pockets (even without the Axis preserving their forces and pushing less hard). The German player, in contrast, has to perform even better than the historically quite good performance of their predecessors to make sure that the Russian players don't entirely escape damage. So I have not seen a report of an Axis player mauling the Russians so much worse than the corresponding result during for the Russians during blizzard.

Your own arguments rather make a good case against the switching from one extreme side to the other during blizzard. The Russians should be getting gradually better (as you would naturally expect for a process of learning and continuous re-equipping), but should have a "short" phase of benefits arising from the German supply chains and troops being initially surprised by the blizzard, and because the reinforcements from Siberia were better equipped and trained for winter fighting than the western units were. But I think once winter is over, their combat value relative to the Germans should also not drop again just due to end of blizzard rules. Ideally there would be more gradual trends for both sides.

I think the blizzard discussion on the main thread has brought up a number of good points, and I think that 2by3 and Matrix probably follow these customer ideas. But now it would be a good point to give them some time to implement changes, and see how they play out before fighting more about this. Maybe Beta 5 already will do much better? If there is one team I trust to listen here and get things done right, then I am sure it is Gary&team.

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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: janh

I simply disagree: in numerous AARs the Russians without having trained in many PBEM games managed a reasonable extraction in summer 41 and ended up stronger than their historical counterparts since they do not have to repeat stoic holding actions ending in huge pockets (even without the Axis preserving their forces and pushing less hard).

Whatever the euphemisms you might want to use, do check the losses screens of these AARs. You will see the mauled Soviet hordes there. By the millions [:)] If that's not mauled then I'd like know what it is.
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JAMiAM
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

That's fine to hijack, because not sure where this game is right now. Von Beanie hasn't sent a turn or communicated since Thursday, and prior to that he was extremely reliable and fast. Not sure what happened. It couldn't of been due to game conditions, that's for sure!
Hmmmn...you're right. I sent him an email a couple of days ago that has gone unanswered. Hope he's okay.
Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
haven't seen any really successful blizzard stories from you experienced guys who went thru blizz 7 times or more,

Is the Field Marshal Noob AAR not enough?

That was against the AI in some pretty old alpha version, there's no way I repeat NO WAY you would get that percentage of HOLDs vs human.

Blizzard AARs show somewhere in between 70 and 100 Sov attacks on the first turn, HUGE majority of which are successful. (85-95%)

Aren't you the same person that claimed that it didn't matter what version was being played? The results would be the same no matter what????

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno

Righto. Which is why I am hopeful that Beta 5 games will come in with their data sooner than later.

There will always be some new beta, some new patch, some new bug discovered (that, I am sure, some players will blow outta proportions).... that's the future of WITE for at least a year or two, if WITP experience is any measure.

Call me old fashioned but I don't really understand this obsession with minor tweaks and this or that patch. Some players will vehemently argue that some patch favored this or that side - personally, apart from very very minor adjustments, I am pretty certain any AAR result you see now, is pretty much the same you would have seen with v1.00

I don't obsess over such miniscule changes, I worry about the overall strategy and conducting operations. Apart from the things I learned about the game and my own experience, I would play the same game if I'd to play with v1.00 and I am sure results would be 99,9% the same (give or take a hex or two).

Yes, yes that was you.....

PS: Oops, I to apologize for hijacking this excellent AAR.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Senno
Aren't you the same person that claimed that it didn't matter what version was being played? The results would be the same no matter what????

That's an alpha version, surely you know the difference between alpha (that's pre-beta) version of the game and minor patches AFTER the game is released?

Anyhow, main thing is he played vs AI not the person, so feel free to completely disregard my remark about the version. I do believe whatever he did in alpha would work even in current version of the game. The problem is he did that vs the AI. AI has 50% attack success rate on first turn of the blizzard, humans have WAY more (try like 85%).
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karonagames
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by karonagames »

The problem is he did that vs the AI. AI has 50% attack success rate on first turn of the blizzard, humans have WAY more (try like 85%).

The AI was making 120 attacks so 60 were successful. The Human was making 70odd attacks so 60ish were successful.
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Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno
Aren't you the same person that claimed that it didn't matter what version was being played? The results would be the same no matter what????

That's an alpha version, surely you know the difference between alpha (that's pre-beta) version of the game and minor patches AFTER the game is released?

Anyhow, main thing is he played vs AI not the person, so feel free to completely disregard my remark about the version. I do believe whatever he did in alpha would work even in current version of the game. The problem is he did that vs the AI. AI has 50% attack success rate on first turn of the blizzard, humans have WAY more (try like 85%).

Of course. I also recognize someone who held a complete opposite viewpoint until a few days ago, now holds the opposite and argues it as vehemently, while not paying any heed to contradictory evidence provided by those people who have played the game the longest and know it the best.

However, I didn't think you saw any difference in any playable version until I read your latest. You expounded greatly on the topic. So I was surprised to see that the Alpha is suddenly somehow a completely different beast for you. That's when I realized there's a large credibility gap, and whatever works best at the moment for your argument will be what you type.[:)] Nothing like the fervor and zeal of the recent convert.

Sorry, but that's what i see.[:)] And you might wish to apologize to BWheatley and his friend, whom you savaged for arguing the same things you are now arguing.... Oh wait, to you it's humour. Well, this is my standup routine, as well. I will be performing here for the forseeable future. See you in the funny papers....

Sorry to hijack the AAR.

That's All Folks!

TD will be along with his popcorn shortly.[;)]

By the way, I still think that waiting for the data from the game between BA and Speedy is our best bet. As they are haven't given up, and are playing through. But then I always did think there were differences between the versions, and having the most current data would be the best test. You previously argued against that position....

PPS: What are the rules around here? I shall wait quietly for the internet cops to show and go without protest. Viva la revolution'![8D]
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Senno
Sorry, but that's what i see.[:)]

Allright then you need to look more carefully. I'll explain it for ya.

Forget about alpha version remark - important thing is he played AI, just forget the remark about the version if that will make you feel better. The version number really does not change the argument about winter modelling one iotta (at least until we know what changed between that alpha and the release version). As for the different versions since release, as far as I know, blizzard modelling was not changed from 1.00 till 1.03beta6.

As for the guy I "savaged" you probably mean Ara (abulbulian) not BWHeatley with whom I never had any argument. I am sorry I just find Ara's posts over-dramatic to the point of being hilarious. That's all. I also found, and still find, his SUMMER GERMAN whining utterly unreasonable. As I said many times, summer German superhumans are almost as irritating and almost as overpowered as winter Russians.

If and when Ara whined about blizzard effect on Germans... well, yes, after playing the game more, I came to agree with him. What's so bad in that? Only a fool won't change his mind when faced with some good arguments.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
The problem is he did that vs the AI. AI has 50% attack success rate on first turn of the blizzard, humans have WAY more (try like 85%).

The AI was making 120 attacks so 60 were successful. The Human was making 70odd attacks so 60ish were successful.

AI has no concept of flanking, exploiting, reinforcing a success (key tactics in Soviet operational plans) etc. AI just bulldozes it's way forward. Where's a challenge in that?

I think we did enough of Q-Ball's thread hijacking. I do hope Beanie is OK, just having problems with Internet, and this AAR will continue describing the German disaster.

We should probably shut up or start our own AAR. So how about you play as Axis, Big (you Senno are invited too) and show us how to survive the blizzard? I gotta admit I miss playing the game. I would feel bad about steamrolling ACR again as Soviet, but you two are, like, asking for it yourself [:)]

I predict the following might happen:

a) 15-20% chance that you will simply steamroll over me with your superhuman summer Germans, if you're as good as the best German players out there (Emir or Jamiam). It might happen, remember I hate superhuman summer Germans too.

b) If you do not steamroll completely over the whole map, 60-70% I will steamroll over you as Soviet, basically making the game pointless by march 42

(both A and B are bad IMO, because there's no fun in that, just two waves of superhumans, not fun, not historic)

c) 10-25% that something else will happen. You successfully stop my blizzard offensive (yay!), or some new anti-blizzard patch appears making this whole argument moot.

So?
Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno
Sorry, but that's what i see.[:)]

Only a fool won't change his mind when faced with some good arguments.

I agree with the reasonable you.

And I find BA's, ComradeP's findings along with the other testers believable and their arguments good. IE: Winter = survivable and no supermen. I suspect that since the math is hidden (how they arrive at final CV and odds) people will continue to call both sides supermen until it is revealed. And that might be a good thing, if only to quiet an ongoing source of controversy. I know many people like the hidden math, as they feel it gives them an advantage after they do the work and uncover the arcane formula.

At least until we have the results of current games. And games that are quit before resolution don't really count. So we are still waiting on BA and Speedy. Then fix away if they can demonstrate a problem.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Senno
At least until we have the results of current games. And games that are quit before resolution don't really count. So we are still waiting on BA and Speedy. Then fix away if they can demonstrate a problem.

I am kinda doubtful of the test where the Soviet side is played by a guy who is trying to show us all in the main forum that the model is basically fine. I suspect Big does not put his heart in it! [;)]

I think he should play me, as German, and let someone else (in this case me) try to steamroll over HIM during winter.

(Of course there's pretty solid possibility he would steamroll over me as German during summer, with summer Germans overpowered as they are that's perfectly doable.)
Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno
At least until we have the results of current games. And games that are quit before resolution don't really count. So we are still waiting on BA and Speedy. Then fix away if they can demonstrate a problem.

I am kinda doubtful of the test where the Soviet side is played by a guy who is trying to show us all in the main forum that the model is basically fine. I suspect Big does not put his heart in it! [;)]

I think he should play me, as German, and let someone else (in this case me) try to steamroll over HIM during winter.

Sorry, after accusing you I feel bad and don't have the heart for another accusation.

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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Senno
Sorry, after accusing you I feel bad and don't have the heart for another accusation.

Senno how about you play German and try to survive the blizzard vs me? I don't know how good ("competent", Pieter would say) you are....
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Q-Ball
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Q-Ball »

We should probably shut up or start our own AAR.

Here Here![;)]

We need more examples and data for posterity
Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno
Sorry, after accusing you I feel bad and don't have the heart for another accusation.

Senno how about you play German and try to survive the blizzard vs me? I don't know how good ("competent", Pieter would say) you are....

I'm not. But I shall do my best for posterity.

Or do you want to play germans and run over me? I'm equally bad, so your choice.
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by karonagames »

I suspect Big does not put his heart in it!

You are getting a bit close to crossing the line there. Back up to 80+ attacks in turn 27.

I have no interest in committing to a campaign against someone who will quit at the slightest excuse. Very few things make me angry but wasting my time will get me every time.
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ComradeP
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by ComradeP »

Oleg, I'll be here when you do want to play the Axis against a competent Soviet opponent/when you stop giving vague reasons why you're not going to play as the Axis and actually try to prove the point you're making.

Like Senno implied, your arguments are like leaves on a tree, they are moved in the direction the wind blows. If anything, the blizzard is easier for the Axis with the latest versions than it was at release due to what comes down to a cap on Soviet (and Axis, but it's mostly noticeable with the Soviets) morale increase and the prevention of Rifle brigade merging, yet still you repeated week after week (and this is no exaggeration, it's really what you did), that abulbulian was just some whining Axis fanboy, just like according to you I was also essentially an Axis fanboy even though the vast majority of my time spend testing the game was spend on playing the Soviets.

I'm really finding it difficult to take you seriously considering how your argument changes with the majority view, and your reluctance to actually prove your point, considering you turned down my challenge for a game.

Very simply put, you're a chicken who doesn't stand by his point when he seems to be losing a debate, which is why I've had issues with you since you started posting here. I've heard others say good things about you, I just don't see a justification for those good remarks. You might very well be a good person, but you're a chicken when it comes to WitE and proving an argument.
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Senno
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by Senno »

oleg, I suspect ComradeP would be a more fun game for you and a better test overall. But I shall play you (either side, your choice) if desired. I can commit to a turn a day.
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RE: Winter of our Discontent.....

Post by ComradeP »

Sorry for all of us hijacking your AAR by the way, Q-Ball.
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