Japanese ASW

[EUBanana]

Be interested to see just what impact air search has on E vs SS.

If it merely causes the Es to react onto the subs, then I don't think air search is an issue, and the issue is the E being too good.

If E's suddenly start missing all the time if there are no ASW planes on search, then perhaps ASW planes are too good, or if you are feeling generous the Japanese player is a genius.

I suspect the former, though, based on my own experiences with ASW aircraft - ie that player decisions are not responsible for the massacre of Allied submarines, that it's purely down to the game engine and the maths behind resolving depth charges. I've not seen much difference in performance from Allied SCs when in ASW a/c range or not, beyond the reacting onto the subs.

And even if the Japanese player is a genius,consider the numbers. It's probably possible to lose more Allied submarines in two months in 1944 than were really lost in the entire war, if the Allied player doesn't scurry back into port! This is really, really, REALLY broken. I don't think player choices are really an issue here, with brokenness of that magnitude.

Bear in mind that what /really/ happened in 1944 was a US Happy Time and massacre. I would have thought that if the IJN in game managed to avoid complete massacre on the high seas by submarines then that would be far far better than historical performance and a Japanese player should be very happy to get that. I think wiping out the USN submarine arm is into complete fantasy. In several AARs in 1944 now the US has simply given up the sub war, completely, after a couple of months, and for one reason and one reason alone - the super E. It's not like the Japanese were not ASWing diligently in 1943 in these games, they were. Japanese ASW tactics in AARs are probably not changing from mid 1942 on. What has changed in 1944? The super-E. It was the super E that made the difference, not player decisions.

Crazy. Broken.

I can't even see much scope for debate to be honest, it's just bust, wantonly bust, surely anybody can see that. Akin to long lances being totally nonfunctional bust.


I think JFBs should put themselves into Allied shoes on this one. Imagine if KB could have their clock cleaned Midway style with regularity. Imagine if Long Lances simply didn't work. Imagine if the USN was better than the IJN at night. We're talking here about what was in reality an extremely effective part of the USN, perhaps even the most effective arguably, being gutted so badly that players are simply leaving the subs in port and not even attempting to use them anymore. It really is insane. There would be no end of complaint. I'm sure it would be agreed to be changed, in fact it was, remember when radar made the USN slaughter the Japanese at night?

Because this only shows up in 1944 and few games get that far, this problem, of equal magnitude, has not really been encountered. Until now.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Be interested to see just what impact air search has on E vs SS.

If it merely causes the Es to react onto the subs, then I don't think air search is an issue, and the issue is the E being too good.

If E's suddenly start missing all the time if there are no ASW planes on search, then perhaps ASW planes are too good, or if you are feeling generous the Japanese player is a genius.

I suspect the former, though, based on my own experiences with ASW aircraft - ie that player decisions are not responsible for the massacre of Allied submarines, that it's purely down to the game engine and the maths behind resolving depth charges. I've not seen much difference in performance from Allied SCs when in ASW a/c range or not, beyond the reacting onto the subs.

And even if the Japanese player is a genius,consider the numbers. It's probably possible to lose more Allied submarines in two months in 1944 than were really lost in the entire war, if the Allied player doesn't scurry back into port! This is really, really, REALLY broken. I don't think player choices are really an issue here, with brokenness of that magnitude.

Bear in mind that what /really/ happened in 1944 was a US Happy Time and massacre. I would have thought that if the IJN in game managed to avoid complete massacre on the high seas by submarines then that would be far far better than historical performance and a Japanese player should be very happy to get that. I think wiping out the USN submarine arm is into complete fantasy. In several AARs in 1944 now the US has simply given up the sub war, completely, after a couple of months, and for one reason and one reason alone - the super E. It's not like the Japanese were not ASWing diligently in 1943 in these games, they were. Japanese ASW tactics in AARs are probably not changing from mid 1942 on. What has changed in 1944? The super-E. It was the super E that made the difference, not player decisions.

Crazy. Broken.

I can't even see much scope for debate to be honest, it's just bust, wantonly bust, surely anybody can see that. Akin to long lances being totally nonfunctional bust.


I think JFBs should put themselves into Allied shoes on this one. Imagine if KB could have their clock cleaned Midway style with regularity. Imagine if Long Lances simply didn't work. Imagine if the USN was better than the IJN at night. We're talking here about what was in reality an extremely effective part of the USN, perhaps even the most effective arguably, being gutted so badly that players are simply leaving the subs in port and not even attempting to use them anymore. It really is insane. There would be no end of complaint. I'm sure it would be agreed to be changed, in fact it was, remember when radar made the USN slaughter the Japanese at night?

Because this only shows up in 1944 and few games get that far, this problem, of equal magnitude, has not really been encountered. Until now.

Your detection level affects the probabiltiy you will be attacked as well as reacted to. So yes, spotting is very important.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There are ways to tone this down in the editor, but no way to do so without a restart. I'm going to try on my next start to do this, but for now I think it's just a case of play on, adjust as best I can with other assets, and see how it goes.

Would it be helpful if either I or John 3rd posted the ASW changelog in the ScenDev forum?

Very much so, JWE.

Thanks.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn


[I think its pretty evident that the historic sub war doesn't happen. I also think that it is because of the level of control that players have in witpae. I mean i can reroute a convoy around spotted subs daily, every convoy if i can really be bothered.

Another factor is well-discussed in the Scenario sub-forum in the long current thread about re-jiggering the Japanese economy. Among other changes, and perhaps unintended results of AE changes to the economic model, the LI portion of the economy means that transporting oil and even resources to the HI, and war materiel outbound to places like Sumatra and Burma, is much less important than historical. Subs have fewer targets, but a Japanese player's ahistoric use of many ASW dedicated TFs means there are more ASW-only attacks. There are discussions in that thread about mods to radically alter the economy to require much more Japanese shipping to support the economy, leaving less for ambitious Oz and India auto-vic campaigns, and making the Japanese economy capable of being strangled.

[Cavalry Corp]

I play Japs ...

But how about allowing Allied subs a reaction range of say 2 . This would give allied subs the advantage?

How about making Jap ASW max reaction 0 ? This would reduce what they can do.

Cav

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Another factor is well-discussed in the Scenario sub-forum in the long current thread about re-jiggering the Japanese economy. Among other changes, and perhaps unintended results of AE changes to the economic model, the LI portion of the economy means that transporting oil and even resources to the HI, and war materiel ooutbound to places like Sumatra and Burma, is much less important than historical. Subs have fewer targets, but a Japanese player's ahistoric use of many ASW dedicated TFs means there are more ASW-only attacks. There are discussions in that thread about mods to radically alter the economy to require much more Japanese shipping to support the economy, leaving less for ambitious Oz and India auto-vic campaigns, and making the Japanese economy capable of being strangled.

A lot of discussion going on in there. However, lots of it is based on Babes and BabesLite capabilities and capacities and might not be directly applicable to "standard stock". BabesLite already has most of the ASW tweaks and will soon get them all, so cargo capacity and transport mechanics discussions have to be viewed in the context of already manipulated database values.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JWE

A lot of discussion going on in there. However, lots of it is based on Babes and BabesLite capabilities and capacities and might not be directly applicable to "standard stock". BabesLite already has most of the ASW tweaks and will soon get them all, so cargo capacity and transport mechanics discussions have to be viewed in the context of already manipulated database values.

I should play BabesLite next I think.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I should play BabesLite next I think.

Tried to keep BabesLite identical to stock for all AI purposes. So ..

BL Scen026 IS Scen01 (and IS Scen07 if one uses the Quiet China AI files).
BL Scen027 IS Scen02 (and IS Scen09 if one uses the Quiet China AI files).

BL just has all the Load Cost, AA, ASW, etc. database tweaks, as well as some new ships and classes that make for more fun without impacting playability whatsoever. Couple hundred people use it as their campaign game basis.

I asked that it NOT be included in the standard game scenario downloads. Keeping it as a mod lets us tweak as necessary, when something gnarly comes up, without having to go through the data-patch thing, so it's faster and way more responsive. Most of the BL tweaks eventually turn up in the stock data patches, so ...

Just think of today's BabesLite as tomorrow's stock.

And, before you even ask, NO !! BabesLite will never be a what-if scen. If Andy thinks the data things work, he'll incorporate them into Hakko Ichio and/or Ironman. These ain't our scens so we will not.

Ciao. J

[Bullwinkle58]

Thanks, JWE. For now I have to play AI games. The Big B. looks very tempting though, someday.

I'll give Lite027 w/AI a turn as soon as I tie up 1944 in my present game.

[JWE]

No worries Moose. Changelog posted. You got any questions, just ask.

[Bullwinkle58]

Posted a few comments in that thread. Nice changes!

For everyone still in this thread (especially EUbanana) you should look at that changelog. Easy to make tweaks (requires restart), but they make a lot of sense given the static nature of the exec routines. Especially like idea of making USN subs more durable, as well as working in data to make IJN ASW a bit weaker late-war.

[bradfordkay]

Restarts are tough to swallow when you've been at war for over a year... oh well, c'est la vie.

[EUBanana]

Yeah... a year and a half RL into a game a restart just isn't happening. [;)]

[oldman45]

Bullwinkle, I would skip the babes lite and go right to Da Big Babes, the AI works ok and the changes make a whole different game.

[witpqs]

Yeah, I think it's only the Allied AI that might not work with DaBigBabes.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Yeah... a year and a half RL into a game a restart just isn't happening. [;)]

Yeah? well neither is a code change. So you can either restart and get it done or don't do anything and keep on whining. If you keep on whining nobody will pay any attention except other whinebois anyway, so looks like the choice is yours.

Do or do not, I really don't care..

If you do not, then go to the 'nobody cares anyway' whine corner, or go not and just shut up.

Obviously if you are gonna be a dork about it, nobody is gonna pay a pinch of owl dung's worth of attention. 10 bonus points if anybody can say who, and when for that little quote.

[anarchyintheuk]

Don't know the author but I know it was about Gen. Pope probabaly during 2nd Manassas. A lot of AoP officers probably likened him to said substance. At least you didn't have to almost fire him to get him to move like Mac.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah, I think it's only the Allied AI that might not work with DaBigBabes.

That's the problem for me. [:)]

When I finish my current I'm going to paly something, some scenario, on the Japanese side to learn the production system. So I guess I'll have two games going.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Yeah... a year and a half RL into a game a restart just isn't happening. [;)]

You could play parallel games.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah, I think it's only the Allied AI that might not work with DaBigBabes.

That's the problem for me. [:)]

When I finish my current I'm going to paly something, some scenario, on the Japanese side to learn the production system. So I guess I'll have two games going.

Oh, I thought you were playing as Allies against Japanese AI!