Tweaking the Japanese/Allied Economies

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Well I'm wondering why put extra supply at those bases at all? I was just thinking a very simple approach:

US produces X (xx,xxx) supply per day.

Put in Y number of damaged HI centers spread across Z locations that will eat up Z-thousand supply per day repairing. Make the spread of Y across Z heterogeneous if a staggered ramp up is desired.

I just looked at my spreadsheet of Scenario 28 bases and there are 39 Continental US and another 19 Canadian. Those do not count Alaska. So by working only with HI - which for the Allies will have no effect on anything else (unless Japan captures it & good for them) - so by working only with HI you can cause 58,000 supply to be eaten per day for as long as you want. You can have 58,000 supply eaten the first day, 57,000 the second day, etc. or have 58,000 eaten every day for three years.

From looking at your earlier post I think a reduction of 58,000 per day is more than you want, so you can safely ignore some of the remote Canadian bases that might be hard to get supplies to.

No need to give any base extra supply or worry about extra LI producing extra supply when the whole thing is done repairing.

Well I think the problem becomes an exercise in silliness for the Allies. Every point of HI you repair will take 500 days before you are in a positive for supply. Every point of LI you repair takes 1000 days to redeem. So long story short, unless you want to create a scenario that requires a HR that all ContUS industry must be set to repair and then build in the supply allowances to cover the repairs, then it cannot be done.

I think the answer may be in JWE's lift adjustments and playing with some unit arrivals and PP's as far as lowering the Allied early offensive potential. Also I would strip India of everything but Resources and 100% damaged HI. That way an ambitious JFB caould capture the HI, repair it and at least get some HI points out of it but it would offer the Allies no benefit. This would model the Indian famine and make it very tough to keep supplied.

Now looking at this the implications for Strategic Bombing in my mind are staggering. Basically any damage done to LI is not worth fixing at all. Except for the fact you need HI to build stuff, repairing it offers very little help also.

[witpqs]

Vettim,

Yes, I agree with the house rule that the Allied player would have to leave all the industry in US-Can to Repair=On. That is the easiest house rule in the world to live with.

I thought it was earlier mentioned that HI would be adjusted to not produce supply? Maybe I misunderstood that point. Either way, just suggesting options for you to consider.

Buck,

You are right - I forgot they would consume fuel. Maybe there is enough,or a supply could be added.

It's different than supply sinks, though, unless you can make supply sinks go away on certain dates. Can you?

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Vettim,

Yes, I agree with the house rule that the Allied player would have to leave all the industry in US-Can to Repair=On. That is the easiest house rule in the world to live with.

I thought it was earlier mentioned that HI would be adjusted to not produce supply? Maybe I misunderstood that point. Either way, just suggesting options for you to consider.

Buck,

You are right - I forgot they would consume fuel. Maybe there is enough,or a supply could be added.

It's different than supply sinks, though, unless you can make supply sinks go away on certain dates. Can you?

Yes - just give them a withdraw date

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Vettim,

Yes, I agree with the house rule that the Allied player would have to leave all the industry in US-Can to Repair=On. That is the easiest house rule in the world to live with.

I thought it was earlier mentioned that HI would be adjusted to not produce supply? Maybe I misunderstood that point. Either way, just suggesting options for you to consider.

Buck,

You are right - I forgot they would consume fuel. Maybe there is enough,or a supply could be added.

It's different than supply sinks, though, unless you can make supply sinks go away on certain dates. Can you?

Just a drive-by question, but as you guys worry a lot about CONUS not super-producing, I think you need to be careful to not upset the LI/HI/supply applecart in India at the same time vis a vis auto-victory. If the Allies can't self-fund an Indian defense they're going to get steamrolled by a Japanese player with short SLOCs. Aden is closed, Oz won't have much to spare, and it's a long way from the EC through CT to India. An aggressive auto-vic campaign might be mostly over before any supply gets there if LI is crippled or starts damaged, and HI produces no supply. Right now it's fuel from Abadan to BOmbay that keeps India fighting in the first six months.

I'll go away now. Probably something I don't understand here. [:)]

[treespider]

Took a bit of work...but here goes...using my 'econ' mod...

Going in my goals for US supply production were:

5/42 = 41,300
5/43 = 71,200
5/44+ = 79,000

Currently US receives 65,000 daily supply + 6200 from on map LI = 71,200 which I chose as the 1943 base line.


I reduce daily supply to 50,000 combined with the existing 6200 onmap LI supply production = 56,200

I then give the US a series of LI Centers - 38 total 100% damaged

11 - 180 point centers
10 - 365 point centers
5 - 545 point centers
5 - 725 point centers
7 - 2000 point centers (these will never finish repairing)

So in Dec/41 with 38 LI centers repairng we burn 38,000 supply per turn from our 56,200 leaving a surplus of 18,200/day which slowly grows as LI comes online.

180 turns into the game, roughly May 1942, my 11 - 180 point centers have completed repairing and the other 27 centers have 180 points repaired as well.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 9720 (27LIx180x2) - 27,000 (27 LI still repairing) = 42880 supply/day ....my goal was 41,300 close enough for govt. work

Continuing on another 185 days to Dec 42 another 10 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 12410 (17LIx365x2) - 17,000 (17 LI still repairing) = 62870 supply

Continuing on another 180 days to May 43 another 5 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 5450 (5LIx545x2) + 8760 (12LIx365x2) - 12,000 (12 LI still repairing) = 73990 supply my goal was 71200 ... pretty close.

Continuing on another 180 days to DEC 43 another 5 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 5450 (5LIx545x2) + 7250 (5LIx725x2) + 10150 (7LI x725x2) - 7000 (7 LI still repairing) = 83310 supply points per day....

From here the US supply will continue to grow by 14 points per day till the end of the game as the 7 remaining unrepaired LI centers repair every day.


Needless to say I add an equivalent number of repaired resource centers to feed the LI...which gives the US a substantial Resource surplus early in the game which it can transport to OZ.

Will make updates to the mod tomorrow night...

[oldman45]

This is just plain amazing.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Vettim,

Yes, I agree with the house rule that the Allied player would have to leave all the industry in US-Can to Repair=On. That is the easiest house rule in the world to live with.

I thought it was earlier mentioned that HI would be adjusted to not produce supply? Maybe I misunderstood that point. Either way, just suggesting options for you to consider.

Buck,

You are right - I forgot they would consume fuel. Maybe there is enough,or a supply could be added.

It's different than supply sinks, though, unless you can make supply sinks go away on certain dates. Can you?

Just a drive-by question, but as you guys worry a lot about CONUS not super-producing, I think you need to be careful to not upset the LI/HI/supply applecart in India at the same time vis a vis auto-victory. If the Allies can't self-fund an Indian defense they're going to get steamrolled by a Japanese player with short SLOCs. Aden is closed, Oz won't have much to spare, and it's a long way from the EC through CT to India. An aggressive auto-vic campaign might be mostly over before any supply gets there if LI is crippled or starts damaged, and HI produces no supply. Right now it's fuel from Abadan to BOmbay that keeps India fighting in the first six months.

I'll go away now. Probably something I don't understand here. [:)]

Mr. Moose,

The whole picture of these alterations would likely remove an Indian invasion from the table. perhaps a modest move into Bengal or Ceylon might be possible. With decreased capacities, much higher resource movement needs, and loss of free supply from the SRA (via refineries) The Japan merchant fleet will be much too busy keeping the industry running and the troops guarding the perimeter happy. Japan will have to export 30k of supplies a month just to maintain a null sum in the SRA due to supply loss from refineries. Second an Autovictory move while not limited to would certainly usually be confined to an enhanced scenario (ala Scenario 2). These changes are definitely not for that type of environment.

With all this being done to Japan's war making capabilities, then something needs to be done to address the fact that the Allies are on the offensive much too soon. When you consider the Guadalcanal Campaign was nicknamed "Operation Shoestring", I think we have a pretty good sense of where the Allies should be in the 3rd and 4th quarter of 1942. They should be capable of a limited offensive on a very narrow scale. Gradually then they should be capable of more and more. Especially in the SoPac, supplies and to an extent fuel need to be in tight supply until earlyu/mid 1943. That is what some of the comments about ContUS supply is about

On the Western side of the map, the UK/Commonwealth troops are capable of going on offensive way too soon. There needs to be a massive limit supplywise there too. Unlike Oz and NZ, India should not be self sustaining as far as supply goes. I am sure there was some manufactured there but the point is for the most part everythig had to be shipped in from England and the US.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Took a bit of work...but here goes...using my 'econ' mod...

Going in my goals for US supply production were:

5/42 = 41,300
5/43 = 71,200
5/44+ = 79,000

Currently US receives 65,000 daily supply + 6200 from on map LI = 71,200 which I chose as the 1943 base line.


I reduce daily supply to 50,000 combined with the existing 6200 onmap LI supply production = 56,200

I then give the US a series of LI Centers - 38 total 100% damaged

11 - 180 point centers
10 - 365 point centers
5 - 545 point centers
5 - 725 point centers
7 - 2000 point centers (these will never finish repairing)

So in Dec/41 with 38 LI centers repairng we burn 38,000 supply per turn from our 56,200 leaving a surplus of 18,200/day which slowly grows as LI comes online.

180 turns into the game, roughly May 1942, my 11 - 180 point centers have completed repairing and the other 27 centers have 180 points repaired as well.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 9720 (27LIx180x2) - 27,000 (27 LI still repairing) = 42880 supply/day ....my goal was 41,300 close enough for govt. work

Continuing on another 185 days to Dec 42 another 10 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 12410 (17LIx365x2) - 17,000 (17 LI still repairing) = 62870 supply

Continuing on another 180 days to May 43 another 5 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 5450 (5LIx545x2) + 8760 (12LIx365x2) - 12,000 (12 LI still repairing) = 73990 supply my goal was 71200 ... pretty close.

Continuing on another 180 days to DEC 43 another 5 LI centers have come completely on line and stopped repairing.

So the US supply situation is 6200 (At start repaired LI) + 50000 daily + 3960 (11LIx180x2) + 7300 (10LIx365x2) + 5450 (5LIx545x2) + 7250 (5LIx725x2) + 10150 (7LI x725x2) - 7000 (7 LI still repairing) = 83310 supply points per day....

From here the US supply will continue to grow by 14 points per day till the end of the game as the 7 remaining unrepaired LI centers repair every day.


Needless to say I add an equivalent number of repaired resource centers to feed the LI...which gives the US a substantial Resource surplus early in the game which it can transport to OZ.

Will make updates to the mod tomorrow night...

You, my friend are much more clever than me. That is nothing short of brilliant[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[treespider]

I'll try and sum everything up tomorrow...on how this will work out....my head hurts now....not sure but the US may need some one-off supply boosts early or at the least a modest boost to their At-start on map supply.

OZ will certainly need some more on-map at-start RP.

[treespider]

Having a night to sleep on it... I would amend the US At-Start by starting each of the 38 "new" resource centers with 90 repaired. The effect is to advance the jumps by 3 months...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

The whole picture of these alterations would likely remove an Indian invasion from the table. perhaps a modest move into Bengal or Ceylon might be possible.

OK, excellent points. I have no problem toning down CONUS production, and it should ramp up. I'm floating in supply from about 12/15/41 onward. I have over 11 million supply in VANCOUVER and I don't have anywhere needing it. Also, anything that makes the Japanese rely on merchants moving, where my subs can get at them, I'm in favor of trying.

I think these changes would be great, but I expect lots of howling from JFBs if auto-victory isn't really possible. War versus game. If it's very clear what folks are buying into when they try one of these variations I think a certain sort of player will really enjoy the challenges.

Thanks for the explaination. I'll go back to lurking now.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: vettim89

The whole picture of these alterations would likely remove an Indian invasion from the table. perhaps a modest move into Bengal or Ceylon might be possible.

OK, excellent points. I have no problem toning down CONUS production, and it should ramp up. I'm floating in supply from about 12/15/41 onward. I have over 11 million supply in VANCOUVER and I don't have anywhere needing it. Also, anything that makes the Japanese rely on merchants moving, where my subs can get at them, I'm in favor of trying.

I think these changes would be great, but I expect lots of howling from JFBs if auto-victory isn't really possible. War versus game. If it's very clear what folks are buying into when they try one of these variations I think a certain sort of player will really enjoy the challenges.

Thanks for the explaination. I'll go back to lurking now.

If you are willing to mess with the PWHEX file you can alter the autovictory conditions also. Increase the value of the RL bases that were truly high value to Japan, increase the value of bases that were just out of reach of Japan in RL like Noumea, and decrease some of the Allied padding (ContUS) and an new autovictory arise. That however is a different discussion all together

[herwin]

We used to mess with the PWHEX file working on RHS. El Cid can probably provide some direction.

[Shark7]

Since I'm not good at doing the figures...and there are people that do much better at it.

Anshan, the Showa Steel Works by 1942 was producing 3.6 million tons of Iron bars and Steel, and was said to be outproducing plants on the Japanese home islands. There were over 700 industries built up around it by 1940. The Japanese invested heavily in this area

Just wondering, is this location under-represented in game based on its historical importance? Granted, this would likely have the opposite effect of what we are trying to accomplish by reducing the amount of resources moved, since the HI would be able to take fuel and resource produced in Korea to make supply.

I'm thinking rather an increase in the RC there to represent the processed, but not yet used steel and iron production?

Currently 360 RC producing 7200 RP per day for 2,628,000 RP per year. If I am figuring right, and counting the steel + iron as a raw material to be transported, in 1942 you'd need to increase resources to ~490 to equal an output of 3.6 million/year. That is only if you keep the current RC output of 20 RP/RC.

Perhaps an increase of resource centers here instead of HI or LI since we don't actually transport steel and iron?

Maybe I'm over-thinking this?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Since I'm not good at doing the figures...and there are people that do much better at it.

Anshan, the Showa Steel Works by 1942 was producing 3.6 million tons of Iron bars and Steel, and was said to be outproducing plants on the Japanese home islands. There were over 700 industries built up around it by 1940. The Japanese invested heavily in this area

Just wondering, is this location under-represented in game based on its historical importance? Granted, this would likely have the opposite effect of what we are trying to accomplish by reducing the amount of resources moved, since the HI would be able to take fuel and resource produced in Korea to make supply.

I'm thinking rather an increase in the RC there to represent the processed, but not yet used steel and iron production?

Currently 360 RC producing 7200 RP per day for 2,628,000 RP per year. If I am figuring right, and counting the steel + iron as a raw material to be transported, in 1942 you'd need to increase resources to ~490 to equal an output of 3.6 million/year. That is only if you keep the current RC output of 20 RP/RC.

Perhaps an increase of resource centers here instead of HI or LI since we don't actually transport steel and iron?

Maybe I'm over-thinking this?

To an extent you are... there really is no need to dwell down into the nitty gritty of each individual industrial complex and its output.

China/Manchuria/Korea produced far more resources than are represented in the game. However many of those resources were consumed domestically.

However we do not need to concern ourselves with this consumption, we only need to represent enough resources in game for the Japanese to transport approximately what they did historically. Now if you want to "weight" some hexes more than others that could be appropriate.

[JWE]

Hi Spidey,

The DBB cargo cap tweak is done. It looks quite sweet, if you ask me, and has all the different tender types dialed in right and tight with sufficient cap to perform their functions.

How do you want it? email, pm, posted here? It's a singular Class file directly off wpc028.dat

Ciao. John

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Since I'm not good at doing the figures...and there are people that do much better at it.

Anshan, the Showa Steel Works by 1942 was producing 3.6 million tons of Iron bars and Steel, and was said to be outproducing plants on the Japanese home islands. There were over 700 industries built up around it by 1940. The Japanese invested heavily in this area

Just wondering, is this location under-represented in game based on its historical importance? Granted, this would likely have the opposite effect of what we are trying to accomplish by reducing the amount of resources moved, since the HI would be able to take fuel and resource produced in Korea to make supply.

I'm thinking rather an increase in the RC there to represent the processed, but not yet used steel and iron production?

Currently 360 RC producing 7200 RP per day for 2,628,000 RP per year. If I am figuring right, and counting the steel + iron as a raw material to be transported, in 1942 you'd need to increase resources to ~490 to equal an output of 3.6 million/year. That is only if you keep the current RC output of 20 RP/RC.

Perhaps an increase of resource centers here instead of HI or LI since we don't actually transport steel and iron?

Maybe I'm over-thinking this?

I think this is an answer for those that complain about mising Japanese shipping (even though JWE proved what was missing was truly minute). Because HI is pooled, there is a certain amount of RL heavy industrila output like coke and steel that does not have to be delivered to the HI. It is what I would call the Phantom Merchant Marine - not visible, not interceptabel, not sinkable. The Allies have some too as was brought up earlier here

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi Spidey,

The DBB cargo cap tweak is done. It looks quite sweet, if you ask me, and has all the different tender types dialed in right and tight with sufficient cap to perform their functions.

How do you want it? email, pm, posted here? It's a singular Class file directly off wpc028.dat

Ciao. John

Post it here JWE so we all can get a look at it.

Buck

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: vettim89

The whole picture of these alterations would likely remove an Indian invasion from the table. perhaps a modest move into Bengal or Ceylon might be possible.

OK, excellent points. I have no problem toning down CONUS production, and it should ramp up. I'm floating in supply from about 12/15/41 onward. I have over 11 million supply in VANCOUVER and I don't have anywhere needing it. Also, anything that makes the Japanese rely on merchants moving, where my subs can get at them, I'm in favor of trying.

I think these changes would be great, but I expect lots of howling from JFBs if auto-victory isn't really possible. War versus game. If it's very clear what folks are buying into when they try one of these variations I think a certain sort of player will really enjoy the challenges.

Thanks for the explaination. I'll go back to lurking now.

If you are willing to mess with the PWHEX file you can alter the autovictory conditions also. Increase the value of the RL bases that were truly high value to Japan, increase the value of bases that were just out of reach of Japan in RL like Noumea, and decrease some of the Allied padding (ContUS) and an new autovictory arise. That however is a different discussion all together

Base victory points is an editor change. Not PWHEX change. It's super easy.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



OK, excellent points. I have no problem toning down CONUS production, and it should ramp up. I'm floating in supply from about 12/15/41 onward. I have over 11 million supply in VANCOUVER and I don't have anywhere needing it. Also, anything that makes the Japanese rely on merchants moving, where my subs can get at them, I'm in favor of trying.

I think these changes would be great, but I expect lots of howling from JFBs if auto-victory isn't really possible. War versus game. If it's very clear what folks are buying into when they try one of these variations I think a certain sort of player will really enjoy the challenges.

Thanks for the explaination. I'll go back to lurking now.

If you are willing to mess with the PWHEX file you can alter the autovictory conditions also. Increase the value of the RL bases that were truly high value to Japan, increase the value of bases that were just out of reach of Japan in RL like Noumea, and decrease some of the Allied padding (ContUS) and an new autovictory arise. That however is a different discussion all together

Base victory points is an editor change. Not PWHEX change. It's super easy.

Bradley,

Is it on the locations screen? I didn't see it so just assumed it was hard coded into the PWHEX. My mistake.