Testing WITE

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21, elmo3

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Angelo
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Angelo »

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

ORIGINAL: Angelo

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I don't know Matrix's return policy, but if it was up to me I'd happily give you your money back if you are not happy with the game. I've produced over 100 games and feel it's in the top 1/3 in being playable out of the box, but we want satisfied customers. What I see is a game that was good at release and is getting better with each patch. I'm sorry you're not happy with your purchase.

Thank you for your honest feelings, it is appreciated.

However, there are severe short comings with the game especially the grand campaigns and the lack of play testing is very evident.

I would have gladly paid twice as much for a high quality russian front game. So, if you can produce one i'll buy it. But until then it's only use is as a sand box game.

Spill the beans. What are the severe short comings of the game?

1 Both sides in a strategic game need to be able to decide on what units are produced.

2 The weather system is inadequate for the complexity of this game. If memory servers me correctly it is very similar to SPI's War in the East. In a board game that made sense but adding detailed weather to the computer program would not have been taxing on current PCs.

3 The first winter rules do not realistically capture the fighting on the eastern front.

4 The supply system does not do enough to limit combat. When playing as the Germans during the blizzard I had few problems with supplies. Though I was still losing 100k+ men a turn.

5 The air system is woefully under designed. It could be a game unto itself.

6 The game is a strategic level game so both side should have a chance to win the war. The premise appears to be that the Germans could not win. So have a slim, if any, chance to win.

7 The rail repair and rail movement are way to generous.

8 Inadequate Command and Control rules.

I'm sure there are a lot more issues.

Currently playing against the AI with the beta 6 patch. The Germans are still too strong in the summer. Have not reached winter but in all honesty my heart is no longer in the game, just pushing counters around. [>:]

Guess my expectations were high, but you did ask.
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SgtKachalin
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by SgtKachalin »

Matrix is much more diplomatic than I, as it should be because the customer is always right. Angelo is not my customer, however, so I call troll.

Everything listed as a shortcoming is a design consideration. Fair enough. But they have nothing to do with showing any "lack" in playtesting. Testers play the design they're given. They don't determine the design.

To conflate the two is just a troll. Problem with the design, think it bites? Great, debate that. But this contention that the game "doesn't work", had inadequate testing, or other real physical defects that the company just shoved out the door is bogus. It's just trolling.
randallw
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by randallw »

I am not exactly sure if the grand campaign is something that everyone would pick as their #1 pick...it's quite a time commitment, especially compared to the semi short scenarios.
barkman44
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by barkman44 »

bought an unfinished game,my god this statement has been used forever.Their still"improving"sp waw to this day.I guess i should be complaining that they did'nt tell me when i dl'ed it 8 years ago
that it was'nt finished.
I have been waiting so long for the release of wite that i accept that it needs tweaking.With hundreds{ hopefully}of new"testers"it will get nothing but better.
Sorry but even with all it's supposed faults this is the game i dreampt about when setting up the 1943 eastern front of the third reich board game what a b***h!!!
Angelo
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Angelo »

ORIGINAL: randallw

I am not exactly sure if the grand campaign is something that everyone would pick as their #1 pick...it's quite a time commitment, especially compared to the semi short scenarios.

Agreed about the 'shorter scenario's. Hopefully we'll get more scenareos as they can be fun to play. The balance issues really don't have a chance to greatly impact the outcome of the game. And both sides are a reasonable expectation of winning.

Unfortunately, the grand campaign was what I was looking for and my comments aimed. In fact I've stopped playing the campagin scenerios altogether.

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Rasputitsa
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815
"I bought this game on the day it was released ........."

The Forum has been full of information on this game for months before it was issued and every day since then. I knew there were things in the game that I was not sure about when I bought it, there are still things that I feel the need to discuss on the Forum, there probably always will be.

If you bought WiTE instantly, risked your £70, without waiting to see how it was being received by other users, then you have no one to blame but yourself. There was plenty of opportunity to find out about the game, without health warnings printed on the 'box'.
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
bdtj1815
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by bdtj1815 »

ORIGINAL: Sgt Barker

As someone who actually played Drang nach Osten / Unentschieden I can say unequivocally that you're wrong. Proof? The fact we also played Fire in the East / Scortched Earth. If the first “worked out of the box” and needed nothing more, then FitE / SE would have never seen the light of day. Think of it as being the same in graphics terms as WIR to WITE.

Actually FiTe/SE came out nearly ten years after DNO and the rules were virtually unchanged, indeed I would say that the rules changed less significantly in all those years than WITE has changed with its six patches in three months. It was more of a graphical, quality of print etc. improvement as one would expect from the mid-seventies to the 80's. Think of WIR to WITE.

ORIGINAL: Senno

Well, after posting in the middle of the night, the OP hasn't been back since late last night. And he's had his official response by Joel at a nice early morning time according to the timestamp. And his complaints have been roundly torn apart and dismissed. So I suppose we can all consider this matter closed. [:D]

Sorry I do have better things to do than spend my time posting on this forum.

I utterly contest that my "complaints have been roundly torn apart and dismissed." except in your opinion. If you look through this thread and the forum in general there are a lot of things that are not right with the game as it was at release being brought up by many people. I think WITE is a good game and am very much enjoying playing it, although as I approach the first winter in my 1941 GC pbem game I wonder/hope beta patch 7 might be imminent!

I do not want my money back, and never requested it. I will repeat my concern that £70 for a game that requires this amount of patching so soon, presumably because of insufficient testing, is unfortunate. The vast majority of concerns raised in so many threads only refer to the game mechanics/balancing covering the first seven months of the war, which I presume was the part tested the most. I wonder what other concerns might arise when we all start playing further into the campaign.

And, finally, if after committing a large part of my limited free time to a game and then find that 20 or 30 turns in the outcome has no bearing to historic results due to it being released untested then I do believe I have grounds to express my concerns. I buy games to play them, not have to constantly patch, and possibly restart from the beginning.
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Michael T
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Michael T »

bdtj1815 I think you might be forgetting the one issue with FITE/SE that still hasn't been resolved and probably never will be. Thats the NODL. That one aspect is the flaw that kills it. FITE/SE or DNO if you like is really like WWI in the East 41-45 between two good players its a battle of attrition. No breakthru is ever possible. Thank goodness WITE is not like that! So my premiss is FITE/SE was broken from day one and was never fixed after how many years? I'd rather play WITE any day.
bednarre
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by bednarre »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We feel the game is playable out of the box and very enjoyable. The campaign was balanced as best we could given that a tester 2 player campaign game would take weeks/months and the game was constantly changing during development. We think the smaller scenarios are enjoyable and balanced (they were easier to balance given we could actually play a game in a reasonable amount of time). As for the campaign, all we can say is that we will continue to gather information and make changes that seem appropriate to improve the game. we could have waited another year and the game might have been a little better, but realistically the only way to speed things up was to get the game out to more players. We also could not afford to develop the game for another year without revenue, and as I stated, the game is very playable out of the box as version 1.0.

I owned DNO but was never a big fan. I was a big fan of the boardgame War in the East, but I also spent 4 months playing a 5 player team game only to find that errata had been published after release that added a rule that drastically impacted soviet production. We played for 4 months with the Soviets dug in by 1942 and unmovable, only to find that had we known about the errata things would have been very different. Now some might say we wasted 4 months. On the other hand, we had a great time playing the game. Prior to my playing the team game, I had spent one entire summer playing the game solitaire and had a great time. I wish we had had a system then to let us know about errata like we have now for patching games. If I wasn't a subscriber to Moves magazine I would have never known about the critical errata.

I don't know Matrix's return policy, but if it was up to me I'd happily give you your money back if you are not happy with the game. I've produced over 100 games and feel it's in the top 1/3 in being playable out of the box, but we want satisfied customers. What I see is a game that was good at release and is getting better with each patch. I'm sorry you're not happy with your purchase.


Joel, there seems to be a great pool of potential play testers out there, judging from the intense feedback in the "Winter 1941" forum. These gamers are very frustrated, but can potentially dramatically speed up the tweaking/improvement phases. I understand the length of the game and the current limited number of play testers limit the turn around time, and perhaps limit the improvements actually made. Why not let this new group play a set of historical scenarios, all with the same software version/patches, before official releases are contemplated. This will provide a fresh set of eyes/strategies on the problem, allow more robust testing since player experience varies, and has the potential to more quickly identify the effects of the changes. Also, AI versus AI results should be made available for comparison. In the latter case, only unit distributions/totals need be in the AARs at key points in the campaigns (not turn by turn). The proposed campaigns compared to historical performance are:

1. June 22, 1941 - December 5, 1941
Are Russian counterattacks sometime effective? Did the Russians have the capability to coordinate massive withdraws? What happens to Russian moral when units retreat for months? Is the Russian/German casualty ratio within expected tolerances?

2. December 5, 1941 - April 15, 1942
Are German counterattacks sometime effective? Did the Russians have the capability to coordinate, massive attacks? Is Russian supply reduction adequate? Is the Russian/German casualty ratio within expected tolerances?

3. April 15, 1942 - November 18, 1942
Are fortifications causing too many German casualties? Are the number of fortifications reasonable? Is the Russian/German casualty ratio within expected tolerances?

4. November 18, 1942 - April 15, 1942
Are fortifications causing too many Russian casualties? Are the number of fortifcations reasonable? Is the Russian/German casualty ratio within expected tolerances? Are German counterattacks sometime effective?


As supply, fortification, and combat factors are varied, subtle and not so subtle changes will result in all 4 of these key periods. If all periods pass the sanity checks, the rest of the compaign should be reasonably accurate. I think one of the keys to the combat system is to model that the defender totals in a hex are not necessarily the key. The tactical capabilities of the attacker and defender are very important. A competent attacker will only attack the weakest points in the defender hex, and not try to take on the rest of the defenders. This is much more easier accomplished if the defender is much less competent, in which case the weak point may not receive adequate reserves in time and a break through in the line occurs. The rest of the defense does not materially affect losses! On the order hand, a poorly competent attacker tends to attack in the hex across too many sectors, as the Russians did in Winter 1941, allowing a more competent defender to reinforce in time and actually dramatically reduce the effective attacker to defender combat ratio.
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Senno
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

Sorry I do have better things to do than spend my time posting on this forum.

I utterly contest that my "complaints have been roundly torn apart and dismissed." except in your opinion. If you look through this thread and the forum in general there are a lot of things that are not right with the game as it was at release being brought up by many people.

You are probably right, except that I thought we were only speaking of "opinion", no proofs required. And when I search for specifics from you, they are lacking a bit. I am very familiar with the complaints on the board in general about the blizzard, various bugs etc. To a large degree people feel tied to winter losses as German, are largely based on the fact that people feel tied to winter (historical) losses, no matter what they do. That, and Soviet Supermen. Those are the large drivers at the moment.

And honestly, I was pretty much thinking about the Disclaimer that you wish they put on their according to you unfinished and possibly flawed product.

Complaining that the game needs a disclaimer that it's not a finished work and perhaps flawed, and was knowingly released in an flawed state (thereby killing sales at least, resulting in lawsuits at most) and then claiming that you enjoy it greatly seems contradictory to me.... That's tougher than tough love, indeed.[;)] I'd hate to see what you would request of the Devs if you didn't like the game.[X(]

If you hadn't copy and pasted your original question across 5 (at least?) different threads, I might not feel that you are simply a troll. I apologize for that, but I'm certainly not the only one who feels that way. And my experience as a moderator and simply being on the internet for the last 15 years points to that as a huge "Troll" indicator.

So if you are not a troll, fine. But are there some facts to your complaint, other than "look around and incorporate all other complaints into my complaint?" Which is basically what you have done.... That and demand a disclaimer. Which is hardly reasonable and trollish behavior on it's face...

PS: Hi Oleg, working on my turn, but it still won't be to you til tomorrow, as promised.

PPS: The fact that it patches and that the Devs are responding to customers is a good thing, not bad. This seems like a simplistic statement, but in light of your completely turning that fact around on the Devs, it must be simply stated.
Senno
Rosseau
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Rosseau »

I think we can all respect the OP's question. What scares me a lot more is when the developers consider the game "finished" and stop issuing patches. Or never release even one patch. It's happened here...
Senno
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I think we can all respect the OP's question. What scares me a lot more is when the developers consider the game "finished" and stop issuing patches. Or never release even one patch. It's happened here...

Well, I'm having trouble respecting the question given his unreasonable demand for a disclaimer on the product.
ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

Matrix, or 2by3 games, should have have said this is a not fully developed and possibly flawed product on release and asked those of us who bought it to help in its testing, not sold it to us as a "finished product".
[/quote]

Is this a reasonable request? Maybe it's just me. But I can't imagine working on a project for 10 years, and having someone show up and disagree on some issue and then demand that I put a disclaimer on the product that it is not fully developed and possibly flawed. It's just an incredible demand. But, maybe it's just me.
Senno
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Mynok
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Mynok »

Seems quite obvious to me that they do not consider it a finished product since they are still working hard on it. What they did was their normal MO and get it to the point where the only way to improve it was to put it out for 'testing at large' and keeping tweaking it based on feedback. They do this will all their games that I'm familiar with. It's a proven method that has generated some true classics.


"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
Rosseau
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Rosseau »

I didn't take the "disclaimer" thing seriously, Senno [;)]
Aurelian
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Aurelian »

I dunno.....

It worked right out of the box. That doesn't mean that it's perfect, what complex computer game is? Certainly there is no GO program I know of that can play on a full sized board.

How's this for a flawed game? SSI's Gettysburg: Turning Point, (IIRC), Amiga version. Couldn't play the second day scenario at all. Move a unit and it jumps across the map.

The AI? The Union AI would advance north like lemmings. The Confed AI? Send Bufords cavalry into the rear and pick off artillery batteries. The AI sent every unit it had chasing Buford.....

WiTE isn't broken. It isn't deeply flawed. 2by3 isn't anywhere near as big as Activision or EA. They can't spend untold hours looking for each and every flaw. They can't keep a game in development for years.

Duke Nukem Forever in Development any one?

I'm having fun with it as is. It *will* get better. In no small part due to the efforts of those who bought it and report on possible problems.
Building a new PC.
randallw
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by randallw »

People want each side to have a good chance to win; isn't that sort of mutually exclusive?
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Gandalf
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Gandalf »

ORIGINAL: randallw

People want each side to have a good chance to win; isn't that sort of mutually exclusive?

No it isn't mutually exclusive. Historically, the first year (1941), the Germans should have a reasonable chance of just possibly taking Moscow OR Leningrad AND while doing so actually SERIOUSLY damage the Russian army (meaning there isn't a HUGE overwhelming army buildup possible if one or both of these objectives are achieved. The second year (1942) decided that the Germans were NOT going to win (but still a possible draw using mobile defense tactics) since they blew they chance at Stalingrad. The third year (1943) decided that the Germans were going to lose since they blew their accumulated equipment on a failed offensive at Kursk. No initiative left for them from that point on.

This game has it such that the German player in almost all 1941 starting campaign games can't hardly even manage a draw to set up the second year. What this results in is a boring (yada yada) game that doesn't come close to historical performance. Unless something is done to redress this only the fanboy grognards will continue to play it. Personally, I like the game design and interface mechanics but for me it's shelfware until something is done about this historical imbalance. I can have much more entertainment playing the less complicated but more historical "performance feeling" game Russo-German War released by Schwerpunkt a few years ago.

edit> If I remember correctly, several East front games solve the Soviet Army size issue by seriously disrupting the production and/or manpower allocation for the loss of Moscow/Leningrad in 1941 and especially if both are taken. This occured in SPI's game even if you successfully "railed" the industry out before it was overrun.

I don't feel that the $80 price was a waste of money, BUT I do think the game was NOT ready for prime time (meaning it is still solidly in a beta state as far as comparitive historical performance is concerned.)
Member since January 2007 (as Gray_Lensman)

Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)

Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
alfonso
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by alfonso »

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
ORIGINAL: randallw

People want each side to have a good chance to win; isn't that sort of mutually exclusive?

No it isn't mutually exclusive. Historically, the first year (1941), the Germans should have a reasonable chance of just possibly taking Moscow OR Leningrad AND while doing so actually SERIOUSLY damage the Russian army (meaning there isn't a HUGE overwhelming army buildup possible if one or both of these objectives are achieved. The second year (1942) decided that the Germans were NOT going to win (but still a possible draw using mobile defense tactics) since they blew they chance at Stalingrad. The third year (1943) decided that the Germans were going to lose since they blew their accumulated equipment on a failed offensive at Kursk. No initiative left for them from that point on.

This game has it such that the German player in almost all 1941 starting campaign games can't hardly even manage a draw to set up the second year. What this results in is a boring (yada yada) game that doesn't come close to historical performance. Unless something is done to redress this only the fanboy grognards will continue to play it. Personally, I like the game design and interface mechanics but for me it's shelfware until something is done about this historical imbalance. I can have much more entertainment playing the less complicated but more historical "performance feeling" game Russo-German War released by Schwerpunkt a few years ago.

edit> If I remember correctly, several East front games solve the Soviet Army size issue by seriously disrupting the production and/or manpower allocation for the loss of Moscow/Leningrad in 1941 and especially if both are taken. This occured in SPI's game even if you successfully "railed" the industry out before it was overrun.

I don't feel that the $80 price was a waste of money, BUT I do think the game was NOT ready for prime time (meaning it is still solidly in a beta state as far as comparitive historical performance is concerned.)

Please define good and reasonable...
If good is above 50%, randallw is right in his acid remark...[:)]

And remember that a win for Axis (in the game) is not conquering Russia and knocking out the Soviets in disarray. Any game starting at 22-6-1941 that allows that 50% of the time would be horribly flawed from a historical point of view.

My opinion is that during the first year the Soviets made more blunders than the Axis. Germany was somewhat lucky to arrive at the situation historically found in June 1942. If at that point, she cannot knock-out the Soviets (with Soviet reasonable performance), it was also impossible in June 1941 (with Soviet reasonable performance). Maybe the moment in which Germany had the highest chance of destroying the Soviets was July-August, after the frontier battles. I doubt than even then the probability of doing so was above 50%.
Angelo
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by Angelo »

The game should be won or lost by the skill of the players involved. Not by arbitrary rules imposing a set outcome.

This is a stratetic game and there should be a reasonable expectation of winning the war for both sides not just the Russians, especially in the 41 grand campaign.

alfonso
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RE: Testing WITE

Post by alfonso »

ORIGINAL: Angelo

The game should be won or lost by the skill of the players involved. Not by arbitrary rules imposing a set outcome.

This is a stratetic game and there should be a reasonable expectation of winning the war for both sides not just the Russians, especially in the 41 grand campaign.


I do not understand you here, because I don't know what is reasonable and winning.

If reasonable is around 50% and Axis winning is destroying the Soviet Union, I disagree.
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