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Terminus
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: FatR
ORIGINAL: Terminus

What would be the driver for optimizing the IJN auxiliary subchaser fleet? If it's only our hindsight, is that enough?
Freeing TBs/Minesweepers/Larger Es for more important duties by providing cheap merchant escorts, and thus increasing the offensive ability of the Combined Fleet. Looking through Japanese ship histories on combinedfleet.com, Ch-subchasers were sailing with convoys much more often than CHa-subchasers, despite being less numerous. Even rarer are the cases when CHa-subchasers were mixed with escorts other than subchasers/auxilary patrol boats. It is clear, that even with desperate lack of escorts CHa-1 class just wasn't fully fit for its supposed duties. Even if they were basically stuck with this class because facilities that made it were unable to crank out anything better (as I suspect was the case), this still looks like a bad investment that could have been avoided with better foresight and pre-planning.

Also, lowering the demand for trained crewmembers by deploying less auxilary ships of better quality. I imagine in RA it is already considerably higher than in the real life.

EDIT: Although looking at the difference at tonnage, buiding 2 Ch-13 for every three CHa-1 is indeed too optimistic. One for two is closer to reality.

I get that, but where is the inducement to do this planning in the first place? No navy in the whole wide world had a well thought-out convoy escort plan and the ships for it in place before WW2 kicked off. Not one.
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FatR
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
I get that, but where is the inducement to do this planning in the first place? No navy in the whole wide world had a well thought-out convoy escort plan and the ships for it in place before WW2 kicked off. Not one.
Well, I'm not arguing for adequate measures, like putting escort ships into mass production in parallel with standard-projects cargo ships. Standartizing subchasers to one type can be justified as a measure to streamline production (switching to said standard projects cargo ships shows that sometimes Japanese thought of this in advance), and obviously it is better to choose the type that actually has sufficient cruise speed to keep up with most of the available merchants.
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FatR
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by FatR »

Speaking of standartization...

Late-war building queue (those ships that were never built IRL), includes 6 Yugumo-class DDs. How about replacing them with extra Akizukis, namely hulls ## 5061-5065? As far as I can tell, plans of building these Yugumos were abandoned as early as August of 1943, while production of Akizukis was dropped only in late 1944, when Japanese economy completely fell apart. Sticking to one type of 1st-class destroyers and one type of 2-nd class destroyers certainly makes more sense. Akizukis were bigger and heavier than Yugumos, of course, so maybe replacing them one-for-one might be unjustified.

Also, it appears that one Akizuki-class DD, Hanazuki, ( http://www.combinedfleet.com/hanazu_t.htm ) that was completed but never saw combat missions, is not in the game.
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Terminus
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: FatR
ORIGINAL: Terminus
I get that, but where is the inducement to do this planning in the first place? No navy in the whole wide world had a well thought-out convoy escort plan and the ships for it in place before WW2 kicked off. Not one.
Well, I'm not arguing for adequate measures, like putting escort ships into mass production in parallel with standard-projects cargo ships. Standartizing subchasers to one type can be justified as a measure to streamline production (switching to said standard projects cargo ships shows that sometimes Japanese thought of this in advance), and obviously it is better to choose the type that actually has sufficient cruise speed to keep up with most of the available merchants.

We don't disagree fundamentally; I've just found in my own modding that it's far more satisfying to have a plausible chain of thought behind it instead of just "because I feel like it".
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John 3rd
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by John 3rd »

Let me toss out a thought here.

We've been predicating a chunk of our thinking on the strains of Japanese manpower with additional warships being produced and the issues that causes with creating experienced crews. We've already established Yamamoto's control over the Fleet in changing its course as of 1939.

Could we take those two threads and bring a streamlining of mid-war production into play? Examples might range from tossing out some of the useless I-Boats and Ro-Class in favor of a standard--already proven design--sub to limited retooling of the smaller vessels needed for escort duty. The effect of this might be fewer ship--less manpower--but more consistent design and vision.

Just a thought...
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SuluSea
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


Sent EJ (SuluSea) some pictures we had downloaded when the Mod was first being looked at. Hope he can use them if they have any value!

Later this afternoon.

I'll post a pic of the painting for scenario details and a picture for the scenario selection screen and see if we can proceed forward with one more screen.

I deal with health issues on a daily basis and things have been alittle worse of late, I'm having problems that seem to be radiating from the thoracic spine and wondering if my many lumbar spine issues have dominoed in that direction. Hopefully things get better soon, feeling better today than yesterday atleast right now. Needless to say I haven't felt too creative the past few days or spent much time gaming.[:(]
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John 3rd
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Artwork

Post by John 3rd »

The work you have done is excellent. Take care of self and Post here whenever you have something. Good Thoughts!
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SuluSea
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RE: Artwork

Post by SuluSea »

Thanks John, I'm doing the best I can.

I added pics to historical detail and scenario detail here they are, if this is what you guys are looking for we'll move forward. I was thinking about a japanese shipyard pic instead of the parade but didn't see any, it's up to you guys. You may notice I brightened the Yamamoto pic some.  I'll think about things the rest of the afternoon and add two pics to the allied side tommorrow and see if they are acceptable. If anything needs to change with these two I can do that tommorrow as well.

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John 3rd
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RE: Artwork

Post by John 3rd »

NICE! The painting is definitely brighter. Go with that Sir.
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JWE
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RE: Artwork

Post by JWE »

Hi EJ,
Your art work has just blown me away. Could write paragraphs about your sense of visual presentation, but just one of your screens is worth thousands of my words. Be well, my friend. And thank you.
John
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SuluSea
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RE: Artwork

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi EJ,
Your art work has just blown me away. Could write paragraphs about your sense of visual presentation, but just one of your screens is worth thousands of my words. Be well, my friend. And thank you.
John

Thanks JWE very much appreaciated. [:)]
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SuluSea
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RE: Artwork

Post by SuluSea »

Allied screens for the Reluctant Admiral , I found these liked 'em if you guys like what you see we'll keep 'em if anything needs to change , we'll substitute another picture. If you all change your mind on something down the line we can always make a change, no problem.

Scenario

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Historical

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FatR
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let me toss out a thought here.

We've been predicating a chunk of our thinking on the strains of Japanese manpower with additional warships being produced and the issues that causes with creating experienced crews. We've already established Yamamoto's control over the Fleet in changing its course as of 1939.

Could we take those two threads and bring a streamlining of mid-war production into play? Examples might range from tossing out some of the useless I-Boats and Ro-Class in favor of a standard--already proven design--sub to limited retooling of the smaller vessels needed for escort duty. The effect of this might be fewer ship--less manpower--but more consistent design and vision.

Just a thought...
You want more streamlining?

1)As about surface ships, strive to build one type of 1-st class destroyer, one type of 2-nd class destroyer/destroyer escort and, later, one type of large escort. So:
- Cancel Yugumos ordered in early 1943 (Asashimo, Hayashimo, Akishimo, Kiyoshimo). Add 4 more Akizukis instead.
- Cancel Ukuru-class escorts. These were constructed concurrently with C/D class escorts, demanded almost twice as much man-hours, slightly bigger crew, and weren't particularly superior. Instead of 33 these ships, concentrate on C/D escorts and Matsu-class destroyers. Thankfully we can now play with these ships without crushing Allied sub fleet even harder... I don't if extra destroyers can be squeezed out of available shipyards, though. If replaced purely with escorts, about 40-42 C/D class ships can be made of the same materials, and this will leave workforce to spare.
- Also, can it be possible to replace Type 1 LSI/APDs that arrive in 1944-45 with APDs based on the design of Matsu/Tachibana class? I can try to extrapolate their possible stats, if you wish, but they obviously will be smaller, possibly too small to haul midgets/amphibious tanks/barges, like Type 1 ships did. On the other hand, this unification of design might allow to either build more of them, or to save on materials/workforce.

2)Subs... weeeeell, it's very hard to think of anything plausible there. In RL Japanese sub fleet was fairly effective in the realities of the war's beginning, but failed to rise to the challenge as the war progressed, and it's hard to imagine how it could have managed to do so, taking into account overall technologic inferiority and economic constraints. Sure, command mistakes, primarily misuse of modern submarines as transports, contributed, but above all they were simply outclassed and unable to pull the same tricks American subs did. It's hard to imagine any changes that logically flow from pre-war concepts solutions and can seriously improve situation. Concentrating on building about two types of subs (+ one type of SSTs and midgets each) is an obvious recipe, but what types to pick? B/C types boats have good stats (in-game, but in RL they performed decently as well) but way too big and expensive for mass production. KD boats are closest to the optimal size for a mass-production oceanic boat, but have surprisingly limited range and armament for their size. Larger RO boats theoretically decent characteristics, but abysmal war records, although lack of experienced crews for newly launched boats might have contributed to that (there seems to be a distinct pattern of Japanese subs either being easily destroyed on the first contact with the enemy, without doing anything, or surviving several missions and being taken down only with considerable effort, and/or after launching attacks on heavily protected task forces).

In the game subs are additionally penaltized by being too expensive. They cost 2-4 times as much as DDs. Too much for a weapon that's likely going to be one-shot. On the other hand, their state as ships you cancel to save Naval build points makes me want to see some ideas for improvement here. But I'm at loss for ideas of my own, to be honest. John, can you try to outline how and when the sub doctrine can be changed with Yamamoto in control? So far I can only tell than in game stats terms it's best to build only C2 and KD7 types (hopefully developing KD8 with increased range later in the war) + SH type transports (best cargo to build cost ratio by far) and midgets... I'm not sure if "fast" type ST subs are worthwhile successors to KD boats, as they have only 4 torpedo tubes instead of six. I suppose sub's maneuver speed influences its ability to avoid depthcharge attacks?
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Ken Estes
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by Ken Estes »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I plan on finishing the FLEET modifications tomorrow. Points:

1. My problem with the Torpedo Cruisers is I LIKE them, however, FatR and Terminus are correct that if Yamamoto did take FULL control of the Fleet as Navy Minister, he probably would not have agreed with the Kitakami/Oi conversion. As much as it pains me we'll convert 3 CLs to Training and leave 3 CLs in their original form.

2. Take out the CLAA conversion for the Old CLs. They get what they got historically and that is that.

3. Work the Akizukis as previously discussed.

As to FatR's proposal regarding the escorts:
A. The idea sounds good, however, I am concerned on justification as Terminus mentions.

B. If we cut the number by 50% is that a better number that would REFLECT a simplification of building and personnel movement? Would it reflect the 'one over many' Japanese fixation?

C. I like the standardization argument because that is what we just did with the whole Old CL to AA conversion/Training Cruiser discussion vs. simply cutting and accelerating the previously designed class od DD.

There is a thread of coherence there I think...
Too bad, that chaos and uncertainty has to be eliminated. So much for choice and flexibility.

The IJN [nor any other navy I have studied] was never under the full control of any one man. See in this case Sadeo Asada, From Mahan to Pearl Harbor (Navl Inst Press, 2006).

Bad ship designs and conversions ought to be handled via the shipbuilding quieu, and the conversion switch for each ship; the player adds to or reduces the costs by exercising his options.

Standardization is the last thing that a prewar navy, of any nation, could afford or technically execute. Does this mod allow return of some shipbuilding points by scrapping older/useless ships [=materiel and crew economies]? Might be a nice touch!

Cheers, Ken
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John 3rd
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by John 3rd »

Hey Ken.

I just bought Mahan to From PH and it is sitting on the 'to read' pile by my bed. Looking forward to reading it. Am just about finished with Neptune's Fury. It isn't too bad and has a slightly different perspective to Frank's superior work on the subject.

Please don't misunderstand regarding what Stanislav has suggested. The entire prism of the Mod is through Yamamoto's writings. I've been re-reading Agawa's The Reluctant Admiral to see if there is anything written by him in this area. Doubt if anything will show.

If nothing is present then it becomes guesswork and I am not too big of fan of that. We've made these Mod choices through inference of the 'what if' and it should not be carried TOO far. It would be great to bolster Japanese ASW but, like what Terminus stated, how much of that is fanciful hindsight?

Additionally, I agree that is is far preferable to leave MORE choices in the hands of the player. Give the player 3-4 choices then just 1 or 2. Provides a far better feel for buy-in and tie-in within the game.
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Terminus
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by Terminus »

Why build APD's in 44-45 anyway? If the war is still going on at that point, Japan is losing.
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FatR
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by FatR »

Well, assuming surrender is not on the table until all means of resistance are exhausted, for the same reason as IRL - hauling troops to and from areas threatened by Allied air.

One more thing about possible changes to subs - while American authors practically always criticise Japanese for not concentrating on the tonnage sub war against Allies, that would have been pursuing a pipe dream. If Germans failed despite building 6 times the number of boats (and technologically superior ones), having their main sub bases right next to vitally important Allied sealanes (compared to distances Japanese needed to cross for most of the war), and expending more U-boats in 1942 alone than the total number of subs Japanese had in this year; then I fail to see how it was possible for IJN sub force to make a significant impact (at least one comparable in importance with the damage they did to USN carrier fleet in 1942) by following the German route.

Also, as per Submarines of Imperial Japanese Navy by Polmar and Carpenter, IJN had a severe crew shortage for new submarines already, and no resources to establish a training program, capable of feeding enough meat into the grinder (as subs were usually lost with their entire crews, this problem was more severe for them than for surface ships) making the approach of concentrating on spamming more cheaper submarines self-defeating (see: how USS England became the most successful ASW ship of all time). IJN sort of fell into it by the end anyway, with their hordes of midgets for Home Islands defence, but by that point they were obviously grasping at straws...
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darbycmcd
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by darbycmcd »

Hey there John, it looks like I am going to have a restart on my RA game and was wondering what the status is right now... I got a little lost in the pages of comments. How much of DBB is incorporated now? I don't suppose there is anywhere a master change log that people can look at to know what has been changed and so on....

Any idea about the timing of the new release?

Thanks for the work, I have enjoyed it quite a bit! I think the only thing I am going to change is a mod mash-up with Treespiders econ changes.... mods giveth to the IJN, the mods taketh from the IJN....
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by John 3rd »

Hi Sir.

I think we have finally settled on all the changes.

1. Thanks to JWE we have DBB changes to engineers and LCUs.
2. The pesky discussion on cruisers and what to build or not to build I think is settled.
3. We lowered starting Japanese Naval Air experience significantly to account for the pilot training program.
4. Redeployed the Fleet so it is somewhat less forward-deployed.
5. Have redeployed some of the forward LCUs
6. Modified Japanese CV Air Groups so they have a slightly different set of numbers and cannot auto resize.

Think that sums up the accepted and/or finished changes. This is a major re-tooling of the Mod.

We've got some discussion going on ASW and that is about it I believe.

Is there anything I missed?

I think it would be plausible to be ready for a release within a couple of weeks. Would like to finish the above changes and allow time for people to thoroughly examine it before a massed release.
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darbycmcd
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RE: FatR's Thoughts

Post by darbycmcd »

Ok, that sounds great!!! Thanks for the effort.
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