Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)?

[Altaris]

I'm in the middle of a PBEM game right now, and have been feeling like the Soviets fortifications are too easily brought up to lvl 3 for quiite a few turns now. Now I'm totally convinced of this. Last turn (Turn 19 - so a mud turn) I pushed Soviets out of two hexes, but couldn't move in to occupy them due to ZOC. During Soviet portion of the turn, he moved 3 units back into the hex. When I got my turn back, they had already built Lvl 1 forts!!! Now that's with mud giving a 0.33 multiplier to building, and with only half a turn that it was occupied. Granted, lvl 1 forts get a x3 multiplier, but this still seemed to be excessive. In clear turns, I imagine it's a cake walk to get to lvl 2 forts in 2 turns, and probably lvl 3 in 3-4 turns. I know as an Axis player I can't reach anything close to these types of fortification speeds, so I can only assume the issue lies with engineers/construction crews.

The problem I have is that it's very, very difficult to break through lvl 3 forts at a speed greater than 1-2 hexes a turn, since you really need 2 Corps worth of infantry doing deliberate attacks to clear an adequate opening. I also don't think it's reasonable that the Soviets can build these types of forts so quickly in 1941. I'd say these speeds are similar to what happened historically in 1943 at Kursk... not this early on in the game.

Anyone else experiencing the same types of problems? Any ideas on what would be a good solution or fix to this?

[lazydawg]

You could try adjusting the "Fort Build Level" for the Soviets on the game option screen.  According to Section 3.3.3 of the manual:

Fort Build Level: Impacts the speed at which fortification levels are built

[Jajusha]

Really? I had the idea soviet units have quite bad construction values when compared to the germans. Your oponent was probably already building the fort when you first kicked him out, and just completed them the next turn. Also, for construction support units to be able to help building a fort they need to pass an admin leader check, and soviet leadership ain't exactly 5 starts.

[timmyab]

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that.Perhaps two extra weeks for level two and then three extra weeks for level 3 etc.Conversely I also think they should be more difficult for engineers to dismantle once they're built.

ORIGINAL: ncdawg

You could try adjusting the "Fort Build Level" for the Soviets on the game option screen.  According to Section 3.3.3 of the manual:

Fort Build Level: Impacts the speed at which fortification levels are built

That's a good idea.The only trouble is that it's going to be a difficult job to persuade your opponent that it's a good thing.

[karonagames]

Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.

[Altaris]

No, these were hexes where I kicked him out (and thus took possession of hex), but I couldn't move units into the hex due to ZOC issues. It wouldn't have converted back to him until he moved units in, and thus he would be starting at base level 0% fort construction for the hex again.
 
Soviet units do have crappy construction values, which makes me further suspicious that it's got to be an issue with the construction support units. Since mud modifies fortification build speed by 0.333, this means he's building from lvl 0 to lvl 1 at the same speed that in clear weather would take to go from lvl 1 to 2. This would explain why I ran into a wall of lvl 3 forts everywhere west of Moscow around Turn 13-14, despite the fact that I know from recon and having faced a forward defense around Smolensk just a few turns earlier. I was very surprised to have run into the wall of forts that I did, considering how many units were defending forward in this game.
 
This really concerns me. Even in 1941, lvl 3 forts are tough for the German to crack. It can be done, but it grinds any advance to a slow crawl and requires infantry support to do it. In particular, panzers just get ravaged trying to attack lvl 3 fortifications, which really pulls the teeth out of a mobile offense.
 
An astute Soviet player can simply pull back to a good defensive location, have lvl 3 forts pop up in 3-4 turns, then pull back to the next line, rinse, repeat. If timed right, this can completely doom any German drive forward. And I'm fully convinced it can be pulled off well before the Germans reach historical advancements. Only counter I see to this is to drive forward so fast as the German that the Soviet doesn't have time to dig in, but there are limits to have effective this can be.

[pat.casey]

My highly unscientific "gut feel" is that forts do build up too quickly for all sides. Its reasonably hard to keep a breakthrough going because in 2-3 turns either the germans or the soviets can have a level 2 or 3 fort in every hex.

Seems like there should be more diminishing returns on fortification efforts.

It took the russians months and a major national effort to dig in at Kursk, but in game that level of fortifications seems to go up in a few week.

[Jajusha]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

[IdahoNYer]

Build rates for both sides seem high in 1941. I've had German units expend entire movement allowance and next turn...a level 1 fortifcation! If they spent the time moving, when did they have the time to build?? Soviets dig and dig, forts go from level 0 to 3 rather quickly (from a German view of course[;)].

It would be nice if there could be a modifier during the campaign that reduced fortifications in 1941-42, but not from late 42 onward. This would to me be a realistic way of showing not just the digging in capabilities, but also the increased abilities of both armies to coordinate defensive postions with better integrated fire plans based on lessons learned of the first year plus of war.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

This is incorrect I think.You build the first level at x 3 and the second level at x1.So most 2 stacks can build a level 2 fort in two turns and quite a few single units too.This is before any HQ sapper bonuses are added.

[JAMiAM]

In my opinion, they do build up too fast, but not particularly for one side or the other. It is a general problem.

[squatter]

I think part of the problem is that everybody is considered to be building all the time and at the same rate, whether they are refitting, or holding the line. Those divisions you've got refitting outside Moscow are digging just as hard as those divisions you've got in the front line. And on top of this, one unit can leave a heavily entrenched position, and a couple of turns later, someone else can drop in and hey presto the fort is fully functional again.
 
My suggestion would be to add a forth 'state' for units to adopt along with refit, reserve and ready. This state would be: entrenching.
 
Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the entire army into refit mode' strategy which it is often sensible for the Sov player to use. 

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: squatter
Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the entire army into refit mode' strategy which it is often sensible for the Sov player to use. 

I think this would be a good idea.I'd also add the proviso that entrenching units should suffer increased levels of fatigue otherwise ready status would become totally obsolete.

[Jajusha]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

This is incorrect I think.You build the first level at x 3 and the second level at x1.So most 2 stacks can build a level 2 fort in two turns and quite a few single units too.This is before any HQ sapper bonuses are added.

Scrap that, your right.

[Altaris]

Good point on an earlier post about remaining MPs affecting the build speed. Consider that it's mud, and the Soviets had to reoccupy the hex I took (which had to be at least 60% or so of their MP, probably closer to 75%, just to move into an enemy hex in enemy ZOC in mud). So that means he theoretically should have only been using 25-40% of his unit construction values. Multiply that on top of the 0.33 multiplier for mud, and one can see there must be a CRAPLOAD of construction points being applied to build up 1 fort level in a turn. More than enough to easily build up from lvl 1 to 2 forts in one turn during a clear turn.
 

[timmyab]

There is no level zero fort.
This is the bit in the manual that you're missing or misinterpreting.
The construction value of a unit is modified based on the
current fort level of the hex.
The crucial word being "current".

Edit - Oh, I see you've got it now.

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: squatter
Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the entire army into refit mode' strategy which it is often sensible for the Sov player to use. 

I think this would be a good idea.I'd also add the proviso that entrenching units should suffer increased levels of fatigue otherwise ready status would become totally obsolete.

Yes, you're right. Actually it would probably be simpler to not add a new mode, but reduce digging rates for refit and reserve modes. A unit in 'training' and reorganisation (refit) cant be digging as furiously as a unit in the line expecting an attack the next day.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.

I think this problem impacts on several factors in the game, modifiers that work in 1941 are not appropriate for later in the war and vice-versa. Complicated, but could modifiers vary for each side and each period of the war, or recommended setting be given for manual setting ? [:)]

[karonagames]

think this problem impacts on several factors in the game, modifiers that work in 1941 are not appropriate for later in the war and vice-versa. Complicated, but could modifiers vary for each side and each period of the war, or recommended setting be given for manual setting ?

Why would spades become more effective or less effective dependant an the date? Maybe experience levels could be a factor - untrained squaddies don't dig as efficiently as trained squaddies?

I don't see this mechanic being any less self-balancing than many of the other game functions. If the Sovs use diggers in the rear, they can't be in the front lines as well.

I do think empty entrenchments should deteriorate quicker, and I think a minimum construction value should be required to maintain them if they are lvl 3+. I also think that in Mud (and possibly blizzard) they should not increase, and again have a minimum construction level to maintain them or they have a chance to decrease.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Maybe experience levels could be a factor - untrained squaddies don't dig as efficiently as trained squaddies?

I think this could work very well, after all fortifying doesn't just represent the digging of trenches but also the way those fortifications are layed out and organized, which would improve with the experience gained over time by the divisions' NCO's and officers.