Kovel Pocket

[Ridgeway]

I have been fooling around with ways to get a tight but economical pocket around Kovel, capturing the most SU units poossible. Here I did it with the inf and cav units from 24th PzK surrounding from the North, 17 IK clearing the front and a path to the rear, and 29th IK sealing the pocket from the south.

Here is my latest effort. AFAICT, it cannot be breached on SU turn 1 (the SU units cannot link up directly, and the empty hex in between remains in Axis control).

My concern is that the rear (east edge) of the pocket may need fiurther reinforcement to prevent the mech corps from retreating out of it during reduction in Ax T2.

What do you all think?

[2ndACR]

The key there is your ZOC. There is a small chance supply will be re-established at turn end, but they will be toast on next turn. With no hope at all. 

[PeeDeeAitch]

Perhaps easier (at a small risk to not trapping the motorized unit) is to take members of the 6th army up the clear terrain between where you have the 1st cavalry and the infantry division.  It requires attacking the motorized infantry, but with care and placement it will retreat into the pocket. This is the "Q-Ball in the Kovel Pocket" move.

Personally, I have been playing around with a "Rovno Gambit" inspired by Charon Jr, which includes the Kovel pocket and more to the east.  I do not like having to pull so much from AGC though...

[Klydon]

Units can't retreat into hexes they don't control, so unless the pocket is breached from the east, the units can't retreat into Axis controlled territory. They will retreat within the pocket perhaps, but they are not getting away. 

[Altaris]

It's quite possible (actually not hard at all) to get Rovno by pulling in roughly 2 PzCorps from AGC. Problem with that is keeping a pocket closed, you need some of AGS's infantry to help seal the bottom. And it does pick AGC's panzer forces pretty clean, which causes some problems in the center. It's a great way to get AGS moving along nicely though.

One idea I've been tossing around is basically using Guderian's motorized divisions to go to AGS, and help with a Kovel type pocket and the advance across Ukraine, while keeping the Panzers in AGC intact. To me, this might be the best of both worlds. The motorized infantry is only of limited use in AGC, where you really need firepower with the terrain as it is. They are far more effective in the open plains of AGS, not to mention there's so much ground in Ukraine that motorized really help to secure the flanks. Haven't put this into practice, but I think it's an idea that's got merit.

[Klydon]

I have not messed with the Rovno open yet, but also want to experiment with it. It has some promise and perhaps a better use of PG2's forces. My initial thoughts are to try to have PG2 go south of the swamp and drive on Kiev with 6th army while PG1 goes more south to put pressure along the river and also get 11th army on the road faster. The results could be pretty ugly with either a big encirclement behind Kiev or a PG2 uppercut past the river to come back up to meet AGC with the river already outflanked from the south. AGC's progress will still be slower than normal, but it looks like they have been getting bogged down on the land bridge pretty regularly and the two rivers there are a pita to get across. This would also potentially unhinge the entire swamp as well and trap units in there that could not be railed out.

Ah.. so much stuff to try and so little time. [:D]

[PeeDeeAitch]

I don't like sending that amount of PzG 2 to the south, the 3 (or 4 if you send the turn 2 activation) to the south can do wonders there - it is that good of tank terrain even before the Dnepr.
 
However, in my most recent PBEM game I failed to close the Lvov pocket on turn 1 (one hex was opened), and again on turn 2 I failed to keep it fully closed (but this was because I focused each turn on leaps forward to gather more units in).  By turn three I closed it all and reduced it fairly fast since most of the Soviet troops were trying to skedaddle east and were not in entrenchments.  I wonder if the "Rovno with the 2nd Panzer Group Corps" attack plus the normal, but not full due to lack of units, Lvov encirclement could prove a boon on turns 2 or 3?  Many units will not escape, and attempts to relink to the pocket will just trap more.  
 
The wider the net early on, the better the catch...

[Q-Ball]

I usually leave all the units along the border, though I don't know how tough they are. In this case, you don't want them to rout to safety, you want them to retreat one hex and die.

I always push that Mot Div that is SE of Kovel; a Hasty attack from a division almost always does it, and it never routs, just retreats. If you hit it from the right angle (SE of it), it will retreat, helpfully, to the WEST or NW. Either one makes life easier for you, and seals it's doom.

[2ndACR]

Those units along the border are strong. You will have to deliberate attack them most times with 2 div. I usually bump the northern Div back along the west side of the Lvov pocket (90% of the time it retreats southward) to allow 17th Army to close on Lvov proper and to get at the air bases there.

Take the time and get that Div off the mountain near Lvov. He is a pain and slows things down too much. I usually bring a div down from the north so it is across the river but 2 is better and then pop him with 4-5 div depending on how you do it. Getting rid of him will pay off down the road.

Getting the Lvov pocket takes some doing and some luck, get a few holds using hasty attacks will throw you off and not allow you to close it up turn 1. It can be done, but there is always risk involved versus a human.

Kovel is easier to close up turn 1. I have found that to close Kovel requires a Corps from AGC to come down and help. Unless you are going to go for Rovno and not the Lvov pocket. I have not tried bringing all AGC armor south. It is interesting idea. Would help you blow thru all the better troops, make some really good sized pockets and have a huge fist to blast thru at Kiev and then sweep north from behind the Dnepr river. Which is a major pain in the rear to cross.

[Farfarer61]

That division on the "mountain" is famous in my games. I have screwed myself by trying to surround or worse hasty attack it. I'm curious about the real history of perhaps the 'best' placed SU unit on the entire front

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Those units along the border are strong. You will have to deliberate attack them most times with 2 div. I usually bump the northern Div back along the west side of the Lvov pocket (90% of the time it retreats southward) to allow 17th Army to close on Lvov proper and to get at the air bases there.

Take the time and get that Div off the mountain near Lvov. He is a pain and slows things down too much. I usually bring a div down from the north so it is across the river but 2 is better and then pop him with 4-5 div depending on how you do it. Getting rid of him will pay off down the road.

Getting the Lvov pocket takes some doing and some luck, get a few holds using hasty attacks will throw you off and not allow you to close it up turn 1. It can be done, but there is always risk involved versus a human.

Kovel is easier to close up turn 1. I have found that to close Kovel requires a Corps from AGC to come down and help. Unless you are going to go for Rovno and not the Lvov pocket. I have not tried bringing all AGC armor south. It is interesting idea. Would help you blow thru all the better troops, make some really good sized pockets and have a huge fist to blast thru at Kiev and then sweep north from behind the Dnepr river. Which is a major pain in the rear to cross.

[2ndACR]

Oh, he is a serious pain in the butt. No doubt about it. If you do not complete the Lvov pocket, then it will be turn 3 before he can be safely isolated and destroyed. It is almost a coin toss as to which is better.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I always take him out, he is too much in the way.  The easiest way to make the Kovel Pocket, the Lvov Pocket, or the drive to Rovno all need to have him gone. The 124th (I think) rifle can be hit with 2 divisions (+pionere) and assault, but that is iffy. I use 3 just to make sure. Of course, turn 1 the assault is only 3 movement, so that is nice. 

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I always take him out, he is too much in the way.  The easiest way to make the Kovel Pocket, the Lvov Pocket, or the drive to Rovno all need to have him gone. The 124th (I think) rifle can be hit with 2 divisions (+pionere) and assault, but that is iffy. I use 3 just to make sure. Of course, turn 1 the assault is only 3 movement, so that is nice. 

It is very difficult to complete the full Lvov pocket (all the way to Rumania) without knocking that one off his "perch". You need to clear that straight SE diagonal through Tarnopol to maximize your MPs down by the Rum border. Otherwise the SU can often break the encirclement right dfown by the birder.

I usually use three divs from IV corps to do retreat him -- I use another unit to clear the front and then have them move east. Then a 1-hex deliberate attack blows him up.

I don't like to use the units closest to him -- I like to save their full moves to get more penetration and flank protection before I send the Pz Corps into the breach.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Exactly what I do - the closest 6th Army units have more important duties further in.

[Mynok]

This is a pretty good AGS turn. Took a good bit from AGC but those guys will rejoin at Gomel. Rovno pocket probably won't hold but that's ok. Nothing is escaping from SW front easily.