Anglo-Zulu Wars in AT?

[spelk]

I've been making baby steps into looking at having a go at creating a scenario based around the Anglo-Zulu wars (mainly an Isandlwana scenario). Can I just ask the AT modding guru's whether this is feasible and if a beginner could manage it.

From what I can tell the difficulties might be modelling the scale of the battle, because it would be shoe-horning essentiall a more tactical situation into an operational engine. Coule Martini-Henry rifles be modelled? And does melee (spear and shield vs bayonet) translate at all in the game?

Learning how to put together AT scenario's might be a useful skill to get especially with AT Gold on the horizon, but I want to know that I'm not banging my head against something that even the most skilled modder wouldn't attempt.

Any ideas or help would be most appreciated.

[Grymme]

It would be very interesting with a Anglo-Zulu war. There is a couple of issues with making tactical scenarios for AT/ATG. Line of Sight can not be m0ddeled for example. Ranged weapons can be modeled using and adapting the artillery function. Spear/bayonet can be modeled.
 
I think a near tactical or operational scenario would be more interesting though (thats just me)
 
I actually made a couple of Roman tactical scenarios downloadable from my website. They were not very well develped, but you can always check them out.

[spelk]

Thanks for your input Grymme, I think I was looking at a tactical scenario, because that's what I'm most familiar with - I've had a recent "crush" on Isandlwana recently, so I figured gathering the information to build the scenario would be easier on me.

However, now you've mentioned actually formulating a proper operational game based on the Anglo-Zulu War I'm kind of leaning towards that. I don't want to have to force and squeeze the AT engine to do tactical, because I think its probably beyond me. But if I could assemble the information (approximately) to stage the three columned invasion of Zululand, perhaps rifle and melee combat could be tweaked just a little at the operational level?

I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding staging such a scenario, if there are any coaching tips when trying to recreate a period of conflict operationally.

I'll certainly take a look at your roman tactical scenarios to see how its done. I've been following through Vic's tutorials on the Netherlands scenario, hopefully I can adapt that towards the AZW somehow.

Any help or advice folks can give would be very much appreciated.

[Grymme]

Here are a thread with general tips for new modders i wrote a long time ago. I think it still applies.
 
I think that an operational scenario of the Zulu war is a doable project for a newcomer. I would not try to rewrite the SFTs. Instead i would rename, tweak and give new graphics to existing SFTs and make some newwones. A lot of people have tried to change the entire SFT structure, its a lot of work.
 
Also i would look for a boardgame together with book sources for OOB material, inspiration for events etc. Maybe there is a TOAWIII scenario that you can look at.
 
Good luck and if there anything you wonder just ask
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2131548

[spelk]

Thanks again for your words of wisdom Grymme, I'll certainly keep it all in mind.

I've checked the boardgames over at BGG, and one of them looks really promising Zulu War 1879, although it looks fairly rare - since it was bundled as a freebie with another game. It seems much of the Zulu based content is at the tactical level from what I can gather.

However, I have found a decent map of the initial AZW era, and i'm sure I can have a go at building the map, and sticking some units in for the three advancing British Columns as they head past rorke's drift and isandlwana deeper into Zulu Territory.

I think my biggest problem will be setting the units stats to model the era rather than adopt WWII strengths and weaknesses. But I think I'll give it a go and see how far I get. Plus it gives me another reason to delve into more books on the subject

I'll report back here if I make any headway, and have any questions for the AT Guru's.

[spelk]

I've got a rudimentary map up, with some units on it, but at the moment they are simply level 1 WW2 rifle units on both sides.

A couple of questions:

a) Will I have to tweak the WW2 rifle subformation type to model the damage done by a less accurate less range gun? Similarly can Trucks be dumbed down to wagon carts? Can I massage Horses into Cavalry?

b) I'm not entirely sure how I can make the Zulu Units melee. Do I have to create a completely new SFT?

c) If I'm changing the SFT stats do I have to create a custom masterfile somehow?

any help - much appreciated

[Grymme]

a) i would use the normal rifleman as a standard. It doesnt need to be tweeked at all. Just change the graphics and the description. I would not use trucks for wagons or horses as cavalry. Its to much to edit. Instead i would use riflemen as basis for cavalry by changing the movement type, recon value etc. For Wagons i would use horses and tweak them a little.
 
b) You can use the SMG as a basis for a melee unit. It is worse in plain and better in close quarters, just as melee units.
 
c) No, but you need to disengage the normal masterfile. This can be done in settings (i think)

[spelk]

Thanks very much for your answers Grymme, those ideas will give me something to bash away at. I'd have never of thought of using SMG's for melee combat, but now you mention it, I can see the reasoning behind it. Sheer genius!

[spelk]

I'm making *some* progress with this, but its a bit of a learning curve for me. It's really just a beginner's fiddle with the editor at the moment.

However, I thought I'd post up a very early screenshot of what I've got so far, just for those curious.

[Jeffrey H.]

Looks interesting so far, keep it up !

[spelk]

I think I've bitten off more than I can chew at the moment, had some troubles fathoming out how to get the unit numbers playable and also reflecting the situation historically. I think I've built a map thats too big for the number of units to play on it also.

So, I've decided to make a 10 x 10 map of Rorke's Drift & Isandlwana, and just plonk some units down and try and get it right on that smaller scale first. Once I can get things working there, perhaps I can use the effort I've put in to the whole of the Zululand map to make things work out in the bigger setup.

I think the problem is partly because I'm used to thinking about things at the tactical level with the Zulu conflict, and the map is set at the start of the invasion, but it doesn't give a great deal of info afterwards. And theres a lot of space between the Zulu camp at Ulundi and the main areas of condflict around the drift and Isandlwana.

Not really sure how to spread out the VP's and set up the victory conditions. I initially tried to model how the Netherlands scenario did it, but that didn't seem to feel right. I mean I doubt the Zulu's were going to tread all over the Natal area and try and take it all anyway. So I thought perhaps make Rorke's Drift and the camp at Isandlwana 20VP each with the main supply route from Helpmekaar being 10VP. So if the zulu's manage to capture 50VP they win. The British have to take Ulundi (oNdini) 40VP and Eshowe (10VP). It sort of focuses the conflict in and around the center of the map then. With the rest of the expanse of the map becoming rather superfluous.

[spelk]

Heres a peek at that test game after a few turns.

[Grymme]

Very nice counters, where did you get them?
 
I like the big map better. Victory conditions can always be worked on later, after events, production, balance etc

[spelk]

ORIGINAL: Grymme
Very nice counters, where did you get them?

I took some images of figurines off the 'Net and turned them into silhouettes, they're a bit shonky to look at, but once they're resized way down to fit on the tiles they don't look too bad.

The British Pith Helmet as a British ID hasn't worked very well, so I'll have to fix that - but I couldn't use a smaller Union Jack, on a HQ with a large Union Jack on it. Just didn't look right.

ORIGINAL: Grymme
I like the big map better. Victory conditions can always be worked on later, after events, production, balance etc

Oh sure, I'll be hoping to work it all into the bigger map, if I can. But I felt for testing purposes I had to have a smaller arena to work the units in. After playing through what there is now, it seems the Brits take a hammering. I guess I'm going to have to balance it out a bit, although historically that seems to be accurate

I suppose I can boost the defensive stats of Rorkes Drift itself to try and model the stand they made there?

[spelk]

Been fiddling with the images again - and have managed to get a half decent Victorian Crown as the British Tiles ID, here:



I also created a third people for the various Natal Contingents, and they're attached to the British Regime - so I hope they will act as if they were native British Troops.

I've had a play with the smaller test and feel a little more confident, so I've gone back to developing on the bigger map.

More questions:

a) Is there a way to attach unit images to an SFT for different units but the same SFT?

So for instance, I want images of the British troops (24th Foot) assigned as Rifles SFT, but I also want a different image for the Natal Native Contingent (NNC) also assigned as Rifles SFT.

b) I've got my leaders setup as HQ units, Pearson, Glyn, Wood, Durnford and Rowlands - and their troops are attached - but where do I attach the HQ units to keep supply flowing. Also, is it easy to intentionally cut supply for say troops garrisoned at Rorkes Drift? I'm a bit shaky on setting up the supply chain, and dishing out enough supply to keep them going for a few turns at least.

c) Lastly (for now), I've managed to get an OOB together (cobbled from various Internet sources and some info from my Osprey book collection), how does real life troop strength relate to in-game troop strength? I've got approximately 600 men in the 1st Battalion of the 24th Foot, but adding 600 rifles to the unit seems a bit excessive in game. I've been reducing the number by a factor of 10 (at the moment) because it feels right, but I'm not sure I'm following historic logic here. Similarly fighting a Zulu impi of 2000 warriors would go in the game as 200 Warriors (slightly modified copy of the SMG SFT). Am I doing it right?

I don't fully understand what it is to set the unit's Experience, and I'm not sure whether that affects the units relative strength in game also..

(Apologies for all the questions)

[Grymme]

No problems, at least i will answer as long as i have the time/strenght/feel like it.

a) No, at least that know of. But you can create 10 different rifle SFTs with different images if you want. For example in one scenario i have german, finnish, croatian, romanian, hungarian, slovakian, spanish, italian, bulgarian, turkish, SS riflemen all different SFTs.

b) Ýou either attach each HQ to a production location or assign each HQ to a higher HQ that is attached to a production HQ. But this sounds more like a playing question than a modding question. You have played the game right?

c) This is intentionally left to the creators imagination. One SFT can be 1, 10,100,1000 or whatever number men you like. Its all in the eye of the beholder/creator. One thing you should keep notice of is the max stacking rules which is set to 100 normally. So you dont want to have a scale where you have 100s of SFTs in a normal unit with stacking set to 100. Either you should change the stacking rules or just imagine the hex stacking to be a comfortable number. For example if your scale suggests that you should maximum have 5000 men in a hex without overstacking penalties then each SFT could comfortably represent 50 men. Also you should adapt the normal unit to the stacking chosen so you dont end up with units with only 1-2 SFTs. As a rule i never chose a normal unit with less than 10 SFTs. So if you have a victorian regiment with lets say 1000 men it should have 20 SFTs normally and you would be able to fit 5 such regiments in a hex without overstacking.

d) when you change the experience it will affect the battlestrength of the unit. I dont know the details of this closer though.

Maybe you could upload your counters to somewhere, just in case you dont finish the scenario. I have seen to many lost mods here and they really look good.

[spelk]

ORIGINAL: Grymme
No problems, at least i will answer as long as i have the time/strenght/feel like it.

I really appreciate your help Grymme, after some words of wisdom from you, I go away enthused again and try and add more to it - until I start to hit the brick wall of my lack of knowledge..

ORIGINAL: Grymme
a) No, at least that know of. But you can create 10 different rifle SFTs with different images if you want. For example in one scenario i have german, finnish, croatian, romanian, hungarian, slovakian, spanish, italian, bulgarian, turkish, SS riflemen all different SFTs.

Ah right, I'll have to create an SFT clone for every type of unit I want to display different images for. In the current OOB theres quite a number of different types and I'd like to represent them, if I can.

ORIGINAL: Grymme
b) Ýou either attach each HQ to a production location or assign each HQ to a higher HQ that is attached to a production HQ. But this sounds more like a playing question than a modding question. You have played the game right?

I have played the game a little, but most of my experience was with Warsaw to Paris. I think the thing that foxed me was that you could specify initial supply points for the HQ as you set them up. And I got the chain of command passing the supply down, but I didn't really know how to keep the supply flowing. I haven't set up any locations as production HQ's, but I'll look into that. I was using Chelmsford himself to supply his lower HQ Commanders, I guess I can move that source of supply to somewhere like Helpmekaar, or perhaps Durban itself.. I'm sure there are roads all the way up to Helpmekaar at least.

ORIGINAL: Grymme
c) This is intentionally left to the creators imagination. One SFT can be 1, 10,100,1000 or whatever number men you like. Its all in the eye of the beholder/creator. One thing you should keep notice of is the max stacking rules which is set to 100 normally. So you dont want to have a scale where you have 100s of SFTs in a normal unit with stacking set to 100. Either you should change the stacking rules or just imagine the hex stacking to be a comfortable number. For example if your scale suggests that you should maximum have 5000 men in a hex without overstacking penalties then each SFT could comfortably represent 50 men. Also you should adapt the normal unit to the stacking chosen so you dont end up with units with only 1-2 SFTs. As a rule i never chose a normal unit with less than 10 SFTs. So if you have a victorian regiment with lets say 1000 men it should have 20 SFTs normally and you would be able to fit 5 such regiments in a hex without overstacking.

Ah right, I think I'll stick with the 100's of numbers scale, so that 800 British men (8 x Companies of 100 men) becomes 80 SFT's on a unit chit. And the 2000 Zulu's become 200 Warrior SFT's. I look into changing the stacking limits if I have to, to keep this sort of scaling.

ORIGINAL: Grymme
d) when you change the experience it will affect the battlestrength of the unit. I dont know the details of this closer though.

Yeah I thought it was a bit scary especially if it has knock on effects to the relative strengths, and since I'm not planning on a campaign, I don't suppose it will be necessary.

ORIGINAL: Grymme
Maybe you could upload your counters to somewhere, just in case you dont finish the scenario. I have seen to many lost mods here and they really look good.

I'll put the counters and other images in this thread, I'll upload them to my photobucket account.

I'll post my OOB as well, if thats any help to folks. I intend to learn as much as I can about making custom scenarios particularly with ATG just over the horizon. The editor, whilst quirky, seems to be a very powerful tool, and Vic has exposed quite a lot of his gaming mechanics to the users - kudos to him.

British Infantry SFT Symbol - Could do with tidying up a bit


Zulu Warrior SFT Symbol


British Crown ID Symbol


British HQ Symbol


Zulu HQ Symbol


Zulu Shield ID Symbol

Invasion of Zululand OOB
=========================
OOB

BRITISH SFType Actual Numbers (approx)

3 Column - GLYN
Staff Staff 20
Wagons Wagons 220
Carts Carts 82

N/5th Brigade RA (6 x 7pdrs) Artillery 132
No. 5 Company Royal Engineers Rifles 50
1st Battalion 24th Foot Rifles 600
2nd Battalion 24th Foot Rifles 600
No. 1 Squadron Mounted Infantry Cavalry 100
Natal Mounted Police Cavalry 100
Natal Carbineers Rifles 250
Newcastle Mounted Rifles Cavalry 100
Buffalo Border Guard Rifles 250
3rd Regimental NNC Rifles 1600
No. 1 Company NN Pioneer Corps Rifles 250



1 Column - PEARSON
Staff Staff 20
Wagons Wagons 384
Carts Carts 24

Royal Artillery (4 x 7pdrs) Artillery 23
Royal Engineers No. 2 Company Rifles 150
2nd Battalion 3rd Foot Rifles 800
99th Foot (6 Companies) Rifles 600
Naval Brigade
No. 2 Squadron Mounted Infantry Cavalry 50
Natal Hussars (Greytown Mounted Infantry) Cavalry 50
Durban Mounted Rifles Cavalry 50
Alexandra Mounted rifles Cavalry 50
Stanger Mounted Rifles Cavalry 50
Victoria Mounted Rifles Cavalry 50
2nd Regiment NNC (2 Battalions) Rifles 1600
No. 2 Company NN Pioneer Corps Rifles 600



2 Column - DURNFORD
Staff Staff 5
Wagon Wagon 30
Carts Carts 0

Rocket Battery Artillery 3
1st Regimental NNC (3 battalions) Rifles 2400
Natal Native Horse (5 Troops) Cavalry 315
No. 3 Company NN Pioneer Corps Rifles 1000



4 Column - WOOD
Staff Staff 15
Wagon Wagon 17
Carts Carts 2

Royal Artillery (6 x 7pdrs) Artillery
1st Battlion 13th Foot Rifles 600
90th Foot Rifles 234
Frontier Light Horse Cavalry 553
Wood's Irregulars Rifles 338



5 Column - ROWLANDS
Staff Staff 25
Wagon Wagon 41
Carts Carts 5

80th foot Rifles 800
Schutte's Corps Rifles 250
Transvaal Rangers Rifles 250
Border Horse Cavalry 100
Ferreira's Horse Cavalry 100
Eckersley's Contingent Rifles 207
Krupp Artillery (1 x 4pdr) Artillery 54
Armstrong Artillery (2 x 6pdr) Artillery 54

[spelk]

Here's a screenshot of the progress made so far.



I've finally got the supply filtering down from the towns/supply bases and into the HQ's, so the troops have miraculously become mobile now. I can finally move them into Isandlwana and set up camp there.

I've got most of the OOB's in place. Including the Zulu's. However I think I may need to split up the amabutho's into multiple unit counters and try and make them more mobile, and more aggressive towards Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana Camp itself. Will have to tinker with the Low mountain placements too.

What I'd like to do is make the zulu supply requirement quite light, since when away from their Kraal's they would usually forage and travel fast. Not quite sure how to do this yet.

Will need to tweak the objectives for WOOD and ROLANDS because they're a bit out on a limb to the West, and haven't got much to do. PEARSON, DURNFORD and GLYN are the ones who seem to get into the thick of it at present.

Rivers and the lack of bridges seem to pose the biggest problem to the British in terms of movement. And I think thats fine. Its just trying to find a way to negate this for the Zulus.

Anyway, still tinkering around with it. Will keep folks up to date as best I can.

[CSO_Talorgan]

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Either you should change the stacking rules ...

How would you do that?

ORIGINAL: spelk

Here's a screenshot of the progress made so far.

Excellent!

ORIGINAL: spelk

What I'd like to do is make the zulu supply requirement quite light, since when away from their Kraal's they would usually forage and travel fast. Not quite sure how to do this yet.

Copy whatever Grymme did for his partisans on the Eastern Front.

ORIGINAL: spelk

Rivers and the lack of bridges seem to pose the biggest problem to the British in terms of movement. And I think thats fine. Its just trying to find a way to negate this for the Zulus.

There must be a way of giving them an organic amphibious capacity.

[Grymme]

I assume that you have special SFTs for the Zulu units. Then you could either change their supply requirement to 0. Or you could set it to 1 and instead change their ability to carry supply to something like 6-10 supply, that would last them a long time.
 
As for the negating river thing. That is also possible by creating a new movement type in gamesettings (maybe call it light foot or something like that). Then copy all statistics you want in landscape & road sections from the normal foot but change the penalties in the river section, then set the Zulu SFTs you want being able to cross the rivers to movementtype light foot.