Wargame designs that don't have much to do with wargaming

Raindog101 · Post by **Raindog101** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 9:16 am

If you can debate my concepts then do so. But get some good taste a dash of manners, and stop pretending you are getting anywhere by insulting a large swath of society.

Are you serious? You pompous jackass. You call everyone who don't like the games you like or agree with your preposterous notion that turn-based wargames are realistic, morons and idiots, then accuse me of no manners!!?? You started the flaming with your attacks on people who don’t agree with you. And I don’t care how many times you’ve posted, you call everone who don’t agree with you a moron and idiot, you should expect some flames. You’re a typical lefty/commie/peace-nik/sissy. You can dish it out, but you sure can’t take it. And bragging about all your buddies on your side is stomach turning. Pathetic.

tohoku · Post by **tohoku** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 9:55 am

Originally posted by Old Eagle101

Are you serious? You pompous jackass. You call everyone who don't like the games you like or agree with your preposterous notion that turn-based wargames are realistic, morons and idiots, then accuse me of no manners!!??
[...]
You’re a typical lefty/commie/peace-nik/sissy. You can dish it out, but you sure can’t take it. And bragging about all your buddies on your side is stomach turning. Pathetic.

And you're the voice of reason?! LOL
Consider: Pot. Kettle. Black.

"a typical lefty/commie/peace-nik/sissy" - yeah, real open minded.

tohoku
YMMV

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 9:57 am

Ever notice how the insult "lefty/commie/peace-nik/sissy" ranks right up there with how kids call anyone they don't like a generic "faggot".

You insult was not only unimaginative, uninspired, second rate, but it was also just plain boring.

I like to think of myself as more of a right wing hawk, something that would scare even a die hard racist.
Left wing heheh nope, first thing I would do if Canada was invaded, is shoot all the known protesters just to curb the chances of rot in the core.
Commie? no everyone knows I think the communist way is the way of bumbling losers.

But as you insist on persisting, I guess I will make you Orwell relevant.
Eagle you are now a non person.
Henceforth I intend to completely and categorically NOT see any comment you make.
Your posts are not there, you do not exist.
Your comments will have no merit, any remark referencing you will be pointless.
You are not there to make them.
I don't need to see you leave, you were never here.

Bye eagle.

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:15 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Yes you are an American (and likely you are disgusting many of them right now). Yes YOU can go it alone, which might explain why you currently are.

Oh and please stop speaking for your fellow Americans, I am sure they would rather state their opinions, than have you do it for them.

Please take your own advice.

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:19 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth
Man you american-canadians seem to hate eachother more than we swedes-norweigans do. Well thats life.

Not really, because it is pretty much one sided. You don’t get many Americans saying they hate Canada, although it seems like the reverse might not be true.

Raindog101 · Post by **Raindog101** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:24 pm

Bye eagle.

'Bye stupid.

Ludovic Coval · Post by **Ludovic Coval** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:34 pm

tohoku,

The problem with AIs is that most of the people designing them don't know what they're doing and have never been taught how to build them. You can't hope to build a good AI if you don't understand anything beyond first order logic!

I would rather says that developer like Grisby, Koger or Tiller have a pretty understanding of first order logic...

It's entirely possible to build an AI for tactical or strategic levels that will kick the arse of most humans, all other things being equal. Strategic AIs are particulalrly easy. Operational level AIs are tricky unless you have some *serious* computing power available to you to implement the routines needed.

I take you to the word. If so easy I'm sure that you could supply Kunniworth a WWII strategic AI in couples of month. Go ahead and even make profit !

LC

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:34 pm

Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
I would rather says that developer like Grisby, Koger or Tiller have a pretty understanding of first order logic...

I take you to the word. If so easy I'm sure that you could supply Kunniworth a WWII strategic AI in couples of month. Go ahead and even make profit !

I am not sure programming a decent AI for any war game is easy.

Marc von Martial · Post by **Marc von Martial** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:34 pm

In a shooter game, all you get to do is run around shooting at things. I know, I have seen every single one of them on anothers machine.
I also know that you can spawn endlessly in a single location. I know that you can shoot your own side if it amuses you. I know you can cop out and play sniper to the annoyance of your side as well.
Personally I would rather join a gun club, shoot real weapons and play splat ball with the members.

In an RTS game you get no recreation of anything at all. You can click on this or click on that. If you do nothing you get nothing. If you don't command everything, you get a lop sided innaccurate simulation. But you can't click on everything, so you can't recreate everything.
If your design is not accurately recreating anything, then it might as well not bother trying at all.

You´re not only fundamentalist Sarge, you´re also very simplistic

From your statement above I can very well see, that you might have seen one shooter, maybe for a few minutes and based your opinnion on that. Some for the RTS stuff. Get away from your Command&Conquer and Unreal Tournament/Quake prejudices and enjoy the world of gaming. I bet you don´t buy new cars too, right, since they support so much stuff these days that even apes can drive now

.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:41 pm

Never driven a car in my life actually Marc, or owned one eh. But I have certainly sat through myriad discussions with owners that ran clunkers and people that buy new.
People that say buy this company because they run or the "don't buy lousy US models, because they don't hold their resale value at all".

I take it that most of these people have at least had experiences with same. Might be biased, but I can only assume some of it is true sometimes.

I often espouse opinions from history text books too. None of were for the most part with Rommel or Patton, but we will sure talk on and on like experts.

I confess, I DO have a bias against some games of the Command and Conquerish or Diabloish look. But I know their genres are not that cut and dried.

But in truth I have seen damned near every game out there. To many buddies with cracked or whatever copies that insist "hey Les you haaaaaave to try this game", and then force me to watch it for hours while I try to convince them, "yes it "looks" nice, but I don't play those games.

If I was some sort of prick, a traitor to the industry, I wouldn't have to buy any wargames at all. I have seen copies of them all eh. I know they are there (including Mega Campaigns).
Its not like I would have trouble getting them eh.
It's not like I have that many original copies of "not wargames" software lying around. But I am not overly obsessed with major comanies.

I HAVE seen these games though, and certainly shooters for more than a few minutes. And my buddies are quite into them.

Some play Evercrack for three or four solid days. Some play BF 1942 so much they can describe any square inch of any of the maps you chose to inquire about. I base my opinions on direct observations.

And as these guys are buddies, I am there a lot. And as they play a lot, I see the games a lot.
Doesn't mean I want to play them though. And I don't.

These guys are good too. Fast conections speeds best hardware you can find. I saw one online game where a buddy was systematically trashing the opposition.

As for simplistic, that is because I'm also a writer.
I have had the "KISS" principle drummed into my head to long.
"Keep It Simple Stupid".

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:58 pm

To clear up something, or at least be accountable.

I don't like George Bush, but it is mostly his politics. I would probably drink a beer with him.

Every American I have met, I have not minded generally speaking.

As for Americans not hating us hmmm read Maclean's a bit

http://www.macleans.ca/

There are just as many Americans hating Canadians, as there are Canadians hating Americans.
And in both cases, its the usual mob of loud mouth types you can find anywhere.
Squeaky wheels all get into print somehow it seems.

Differences, yes Canada IS different from the US in a broad sort of way, so what.

Hawaii is not at all like New York State. Florida has nothing in Common with British Columbia. Alberta is a pain to those in Quebec.
Quebec is a french speaking province, and California/New Mexico has a large Hispanic community.
All of this really only says you can find differences in large enough countries if you want.

Our dollar is slightly different in worth to a US dollar. But a penny is a penny and a nickel a nickel and a quarter is a quarter. If you learn US money you can count ours too.
I have no idea how to count Francs Pounds Duetchemarks etc.

Our government is different, but we don't say anything about our politicians, that isn't already said by US citizens about theirs.
So we have a PM instread of a Pres. I would like to kick both in the shins most days.

Health Care, we both hate our health care.

Education, hmmm I don't think our kids are all that bright really. So what if they are on average brighter than US kids, they still occupy the lower rungs on the world scene with the US.

I want to join the US about as little as I want to mate with my sister (I don't just so we are clear on that hehe:) ).
But that we are almost the same is unescapable.
Canada and the US were created in the same way. Shitloads of people that didn't want to live all over on the rest of the planet.

Walking down the main street of Toronto, you can see every culture on the planet.
It's no different feeling than New York City, just desn't have a large chunk stuck on an island. Toronto the city ends, but drive on the 401 and you can drive for hours, and never stop seeing city.

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:15 pm

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
There are just as many Americans hating Canadians, as there are Canadians hating Americans.

Every country has their morons/bigots: those with weak minds who condemn entire nations or groups of people.

Kanon Fodder · Post by **Kanon Fodder** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:34 pm

I'm Canadian,eh

But I now live in the United States of America, married to an American.

I have yet to meet an American who "hates Canadians".

I don't really think I have ever met a Canadian who really "hates Americans".

It's more like sibling rivalry - or, closer to the point - the rivalry of cousins. Especially if one of the cousins is from a wealthier side of the family.

Sarge - you do tend to go on and on (and on) sometimes.
I think you might forget that others don't "live" at these Matrix forums waiting to instantly reply to one of your latest diatribes.

Quite often you end up with 3 or 4 posts in a row while waiting for someone to reply.

I tend to just ignore them when the soapbox gets too high, like one might a boring old uncle after Christmas dinner, telling the same old warn out tales as if they were being presented for the first time.

Please don't turn this section of Matrix into another "Art of Wargaming" by jumping on people like Eagle who are new to the forum.

We need new blood.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:28 am

I probably do sound like a boring older uncle heheh.

I have met some Americans in media that hate Canadians though, just can't recall their names hehe.

I have sadly though, also met fellow Canadians that are nothing to be proud of.

I don't recall them much either. I am to busy thinking of the examples that make our community shine.

We can find lots of those names in the Hall of Heroes.

All new comers should look in there. These are the people that will maximise your enjoyment here.

CCB · Post by **CCB** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:03 am

hmmm, think I'll put my helmet back on and slip back down to the relative quiet of the 'Art of Wargaming' forum. :p

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:53 am

Originally posted by CCB
hmmm, think I'll put my helmet back on and slip back down to the relative quiet of the 'Art of Wargaming' forum. :p

tohoku · Post by **tohoku** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:14 am

Originally posted by Ludovic Coval

I would rather says that developer like Grisby, Koger or Tiller have a pretty understanding of first order logic...

I have little doubt they (Grigsby is the only name I know from that set) understand first order logic very well.

What I wonder is how many programmers understand anything *beyond* first order logic - looking at most commercial games (and the code for a few of them) I would say very few.

I take you to the word. If so easy I'm sure that you could supply Kunniworth a WWII strategic AI in couples of month. Go ahead and even make profit !

If they were willing to pay me more than I'm being paid now then I'd happily work for them.

tohoku
YMMV

Ludovic Coval · Post by **Ludovic Coval** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:40 am

tohoku

...Grigsby is the only name I know from that set...

Norm Koger designed TOAW and John Tiller East front/West Front, hard to believe that you did not heard of them before :rolleyes:

If they were willing to pay me more than I'm being paid now then I'd happily work for them.

Gaming industry is a sharks world, you'll have to demonstrate your AI knowledge *before* they pay you

LC

Kraut · Post by **Kraut** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:48 pm

I think that he knowledge about AI is there, but implementing it would slow the games down intolerably. Computers are going to have to become a lot faster before we'll see any of that.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:27 pm

I'm not sooooo sure all wargame designers understand the one most important aspect of wargame design, WAR.

My main beef with HoI, judging my opinion entirely on the comments of gamers you realise, because I generally prefer gamers comments over gaming companies opinions, is the game ends up a parody of WW2 regardless of how "fun" it might be to some of it's supporters.

One commenter describing Brazil conquering the US, sorry, that killed the game right there.
Germany landing in the US is plenty insane, but Germany had a war machine at least.

Strategic Command's inability to allow muliple types of units in a hex, or multiple counters, sorry, but while the game does play, and does play well, that design feature speaks to me of inexperience of how to make wargames right from the get go.
Claims of unit composition won't cover it. A single ground unit prohibiting placement of a naval unit in a major port simulataneously is just plain clumsy designing. If an air unit can't occupy the same hex, then you have definitely no understanding of game design sufficient for grand strategy.

Those comments might seem harsh, but if I can't see any reasons, for those gotesque errors in game design.

I don't doubt there are some very talented programmers out there, but they appear in some cases to only have mastered the ability to code, not actually develope credible simulations.

There is a term common to roleplaying games "suspension of disbelief".

If a rolegamer is playing in a game, where the GM DM (or whatever terms hits your fancy) inserts all manner of incredulous and unlikely information without any justification, the game loses credibility and becomes a farce.
Grass is green, water feels wet, gravity, etc etc all are assumed details. Remove enough assumed details, and you better be prepared with a reason (and a good one).

The Steel Panthers crowd would not let the game go until all the values were hammered out. Today Steel Panthers World at War 7.1 is one of the most credible games I have ever played.
It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but don't waste your time trying to pick apart how accurate it is (including the moronic assertion it doesn't depict time correctly).

I might have even broke down and bought SC if the stacking issue wasn't there. Lame AI would not have mattered much (I would have either played both sides or played it against a person). The problem would not have mattered much about idiotic production potentialities, I have played games before with "understandings" of what is considered game ruining advantage exploitation.

There is more to making a good wargame than being able to code awesome visuals. It's not being able to understand "logic" all the time. I am sure there are a few board game wargames out there, that could make the shift to RTS mode. But I don't think many computer game designers fully understand how to make them wargames initially.

You have to have a genuine wargame first, then add the AI. The AI will make insane choices and have idiotic parameters, if it isn't playing a wargame in the first place.
When I play Advanced Third Reich, sure there are a lot of choices to make. But some choices are stupid and stand out as stupid in such an obvious fashion. And yet the AI does them. And it's because the AI isn't playing a wargame, its just going through a list of random choices.