More Dispatches from OKH: Q-ball (A) v Von Beanie (R) Rnd 2 v1.04

[Q-Ball]

Turn 6 OKH Dispatches:

COMRADE: I have lost 5,200 vehicles to supply movement so far, including 1250 last turn. I don't think that's alot.

OVERALL: Der Fuhrer is not happy with the progress. We are bogging down already, and having to use Panzers to smash holes in the line. I attribute this to a couple things.

First, Von Beanie's defense is effective. He is checkerboarding, putting a unit on every Panzer unit, and counterattacking. Last game he created 50+ RR Bdes, and I think he did it again, because Reds are digging everywhere. I am running into entrenched Rifle units all over the place.

As a result, my pockets are paltry. Unit destruction is a priority, but with VBs pullbacks and tough defense, pickings are slim. Only 4 Divisions this turn, which isn't cutting it. I figure on 900,000 POWs next turn, which is 10% behind my last game.

Anyway, example of how a good Soviet defense to can frustrate the Germans.

PS: So far, no factories have fallen, he is keeping ahead of me

AGN: See below; I used this turn to rest Panzers and move Infantry up. Next turn the big push.

In the last game, I was in the suburbs of Leningrad by now.....

AGC: Smolensk is surrounded, and will fall next turn. Otherwise, I need to recover fuel from the big push last turn.

AGS: Real disaster!
At the DNEPR line, we cleared 3 more hexes and put more units across. We should be able to push him off the river next turn or the following, which is OK.

Bad News: See the last turn, and that Panzer Finger. It was bitten off!

First, 2 Rifle Units retreated the 2nd to last unit. Then, piles of units ROUTED my Panzer divisons. His losses were high, but having that happen is bad. Progress toward the SOUTHEAST pretty much ground to a halt with that one.

[Mynok]

Might be time to setup for an HQ Buildup, especially down south. If you can bust out down there, he'll likely have to pull stuff from the other fronts. That'll thin out his defense there.

I don't like crossing the Dnepr north of those hills. Too easy to get bogged down and they slow your infantry followup.

[Altaris]

You're running into, IMHO, *THE* #1 issue with this game right now: forts. The more I research this thing, the more scary it becomes. With some good leader and engineer management, the Soviets can go from lvl 0 to lvl 2 forts in a hex in 2 turns with just 1 rifle division, and usually get to lvl 3 within 4 turns. Those lvl 2 forts are no joke, particularly for the panzers. Lvl 3 forts mean you're *stuck* waiting for infantry to arrive and deliberate attack, which pretty much ends any concept of mobile warfare. As the game stands right now, with a good plan on the Soviet side, he can have a wall of these lvl 3 forts within 4 turns or so pretty easy. That's doable by employing a good checkerboard and defending far enough back.

As Soviet players get better, these problems are going to be glaring. Every AAR I've seen so far has the Soviets making mistakes they won't make the second time around, and this means they'll be better entrenched by the time you get past their early checkerboards. I have few doubts that the Soviets can get a solid enough defense line going within the first 5-6 turns to make life pretty miserable for even a seasoned Axis player. Just going to take a little time for those Soviet players to figure out that strategy.

You're also seeing what I saw where sticking panzers out against heavily concentrated areas is just asking to have them completely beat to Sh1t.

Honestly, I don't know a feasible strategy around it, apart from hoping the Soviet player is newb enough to make errors. Only feasible way I can see is to focus your forces into several heavy hitting strike forces that just push forward eastward at all costs and keep the Soviets from having time to dig in. Unfortunately, this can't continue forever, and once it comes to a stop, you're screwed against a well-prepared opponent. I'd say by Turn 8-9 you simply have to pause long enough to recoup, that's when the front devolves into a slug-fest.

Personally, I'm taking a look at reducing fort levels. Playing a HtH test game vs myself with fort settings at 35%. This seems to keep forts about 1 level lower than what I've seen in my PBEM, and feels much more natural so far (but only into Turn 3, so hard to say). There's still little trouble getting up to lvl 1 forts in 1 turn, but those lvl 2's take more time, effort, and commitment to build, which seems more spot on.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Altaris

You're running into, IMHO, *THE* #1 issue with this game right now: forts.

Interesting, everyone seems to have his favorite THE issue with the game. To me that's supermen on both sides.

With current supermen setup, Soviets are almost totally incapable of mounting a coherent 2-3 unit counterattack in the summer, and same goes for Germans in the winter (as previous Q-Ball's game shows). Games are almost totally 100% one sided in summer/winter (with period of mud castrating both sides in between, and snow which functions like mini summer for Germans which is just bizarre).

With counterattacking out of the equation, the only thing untermencsh side (Sovs in summer, Germans in winter) can do is DEFEND.

Reducing the fort capability would further undermine even the already ridicolously low defensive capability of the defending side (Sovs/summer, Gers/winter). That would skew the already skewed game in the wrong direction.

I agree fort building should probably be reduced, but only after we reduce supermen abilities on both sides, and introduce small operational level counterattacking capability for summer Sovs and winter Gers.

[Altaris]

It's quite possible to counter-attack panzers that stick out too far. Just surround them on 4-5 sides with 3 units each, and WHAM!, that's a dead panzer stack for 2-3 turns.

I do tend to agree that the Soviets should be a little better in 1941, though. At least by the time September comes around. I've wondered if a small boost in morale (maybe 5%) might be what's needed to even that out.

What I don't agree with is the uber-insane build speed in which they can erect forts. I watched forts go from lvl 0 to lvl 2, then 40% or so to lvl 3, in 3 turns of mud! There were 3 rifle divisions, but with the 0.33 mud multiplier, this basically simulates what 1 rifle div would be capable of in clear weather. Considering how many turns there are between December and the spring of 1942, there's absolutely no reason why the Soviets can't have a gigantic wave of lvl 3 and lvl 4 forts come spring, which makes for a rather uninteresting game once December 1941 comes around. No 1942 offensives will make much headway against that kind of resistance.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Altaris
What I don't agree with is the uber-insane build speed in which they can erect forts.

I guess that depends on the number of construction and sapper units. As Soviet, I tend to build lots of those. With shakey C&C and bad commanders having SUs commited to defence is dicey, but construction units are always "commited" (to digging LOL).

Anyway, I would MUCH rather have some counterattacking ability vs German supermen, then superfast fort building. It would also make for a more interesting game. If you just reduce the fort building ability without taking some of the superhuman characteristics from the Germans, you will get only more skewed game engine, and IMO it is pretty skewed as it is.

[ComradeP]

I'm not sure if the people complaining about Soviet fort construction speed have looked at German construction values, but they tend to be quite a bit higher than Soviet ones initially. With construction brigades, the Soviets can get good forts up soon too, but it's not like it's a one sided advantage. Many Panzer divisions end up in a level 1 fort after the Soviet logistics phase, for example.

For me the strategic problem in summer for the Soviets comes down to simply having insufficient forces, not to the Germans being much better.

[Rafo35]

You're running into, IMHO, *THE* #1 issue with this game right now: forts.
 
Really ? Except the at start fort in the Leningrad area, most of the fort are fort level 1 it seems.
 
Also, the Germans seems to be more on less on the historical lines in the north and center (maybe a little west to the historical lines) and outperformed enormously its historical counterpart in the south (due to the "weird" Lvov pocket). Losses are of the right magnitude, too (rememenber turn 6 is before the really huges historical pocket).
 
So I don't see how the current AAR support your point of view so far, although it could happen later, of course.

[ComradeP]

Forts, at this stage, do more to increase Axis losses than to truly slow them down. Soviet units are still not really good enough to man forts. A 2 CV Rifle division in a level 3 fort still has a CV of only 8, not something the Germans should be scared of.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
A 2 CV Rifle division in a level 3 fort still has

You mean Soviets do have a 2 CV division anywhere on the map? [:D] I am not sure I have any in my games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV <= Europeans will understand the joke (I hope) [8D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
For me the strategic problem in summer for the Soviets comes down to simply having insufficient forces, not to the Germans being much better.

Whether Soviets are too weak or Germans too strong is rhetoric. The point is: counterattacking is a forlorn hope, and it practically does not exist as viable option. Yes, a Kiev MD tank unit can surprise unlucky Rumanians or some regiment caught in the open but that's more of a gimmick than a real operational level option.

By the turn 15, we usually have grand total of, say, 100 German attacks per turn, for maybe 1 Soviet, so that's something to the tune of 1500:15 (probably less for Sovs in most games). Realistic? I don't know, my gut feeling tells me it isn't.

So what else can the hapless Soviet do but dig? Even digging usually does not help, as even Pieter admits. In my opinion, we need to reduce "supermanism" before we start reducing anything else.

I apologize for hijacking another Q-Ball's thread with my supermen diatribe, I'll do my best to restrain from doing it again [&o]

[ComradeP]

You mean Soviets do have a 2 CV division anywhere on the map? I am not sure I have any in my games.

A near full strength Rifle division has a CV of around 2 (or 3 if it's near 50 experience/morale). 1 CV on the counter can also indicate 19 CV during combat, it isn't literally 10. My point is that even in the best of cases, with a number of 2 CV Rifle divisions, Soviet defensive CV's are generally not scary in clear terrain or terrain with low intrinsic fort modifiers.

Whether Soviets are too weak or Germans too strong is rhetoric. The point is: counterattacking is a forlorn hope, and it practically does not exist as viable option. Yes, a Kiev MD tank unit can surprise unlucky Rumanians or some regiment caught in the open but that's more of a gimmick than a real operational level option.

By the turn 15, we usually have grand total of, say, 100 German attacks per turn, for maybe 1 Soviet, so that's something to the tune of 1500:15 (probably less for Sovs in most games). Realistic? I don't know, my gut feeling tells me it isn't.

So what else can the hapless Soviet do but dig? Even digging usually does not help, as even Pieter admits. In my opinion, we need to reduce "supermanism" before we start reducing anything else.

I apologize for hijacking another Q-Ball's thread with my supermen diatribe, I'll do my best to restrain from doing it again

I still disagree with you about the Soviet counterattacking possibilities, at least with the current CV variability and odds modifier. Like I said, the main problem is the lack of sufficient available forces, not the Soviet unit quality per se. A mob of 1-2 CV Rifle divisions can still fairly easily push back German units with good support and good leaders.

It takes until early/mid August to cure the problems caused by the German opening moves (you can iron out most C&C problems on turn 4, though, due to the AP's you get when Reserve Front activates), at which point the Soviets should have fairly large numbers of ready units. You're not going to be able to launch hundreds of counterattacks, but 10 counterattacks/turn is far from impossible as long as you preserve and concentrate forces. I average 2-4 counterattacks/turn in the first 3 turns, about 6 after that and slowly moving towards 10 after that.

I don't really see the point of attacking German infantry early on: they'll always kill lots of my men with heavy weapons and damaging them doesn't do much on the long term, so I attack mobile units instead. The Germans are not really going to feel it if one or two of their infantry divisions takes 1000 extra losses during a turn, but they will most certainly feel it if a couple of their mobile units take 1000 extra losses each turn, and they lose ~200 extra tanks each turn on top of their irrecoverable tank losses during the logistics phase. THAT slows the Germans down. Panzer divisions are in many ways fragile like Tank corps/divisions, they just have a slightly thicker glass jaw.

[Rafo35]

I agree with ComradeP. Depending of the daring of the Germans, the Soviet can make several counter-attack each turns. I know I do !
&nbsp;
Also, although I'll try to make mainly succesfull attacks, I don't mind losing some of them. Lot's of Russians are going to die anyway, but I'm sure that on average the ratio vs the Germans is a lot better during my turn than during his !

[ComradeP]

I also attack with isolated units, if my opponent tries to contain them with some security regiment. Losses don't really matter, as the guys are going to surrender next turn anyway. You can in many case still force security regiments to retreat as they have an in-battle CV of 5 or so most of the time, something even your isolated units should be able to deal with.

[Klydon]

Not to say this is totally the case about Russian counter attacks, but one has to wonder if player Russians are more wise as far as counter attacking while Uncle Joe as a player may go through a learning curve with something like "Comrade, if we counter attack, its 1-3 odds!" to which the response may be "Yes, but we may roll a 1 on a 20 sided die and cause the Facists casualties so do it or lose your head!". I like the point of primarily attacking the mobile forces because historically that was what had a tendency to happen and it certainly had an effect both on their combat effectiveness and also on German tactics as the campaign went along.&nbsp;

[Texas D]

It would be easier to follow Q-balls AAR if you gents would have these debates on another thread.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Texas_D

It would be easier to follow Q-balls AAR if you gents would have these debates on another thread.

But then wouldn't be half as fun [:D]

It's not like Q-Ball is posting updates every two hours, we are there to bump his thread to stay on top of the list...

[ComradeP]

If Q-Ball minds, we'll take it elsewhere. We're not trying to derail his thread, we're just having a lively debate about what's happening and what could happen.

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You mean Soviets do have a 2 CV division anywhere on the map? [:D] I am not sure I have any in my games.

If you don't throw newly arrived shell units to the front before they have 80% supply and ammo then you WILL get 2 CV infantry divisions quite quick. Attach these new formations to non-STAVKA armies with a 5-admin general, and 2 to 3 dig turns can work wonders CV-wise. I never send units into combat without ammo except in really bad situations.

I hope Q-Ball won't mind 1 screenshot to give evidence of quite a few 2 CV sovjet units (turn 10, pbem):

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

Attach these new formations to non-STAVKA armies with a 5-admin general

I was being somewhat ironic.... but now that you mentioned it, why do you think units gain strength faster if attached to non Stavka armies (ie, front armies?).

My own strategy, when forming a shock armies who I need to perform better than others, is to leave them in white counters, ie attached directly to Stavka. Regular run of the mill, stop-the-Germans-at-all-costs armies get attached to Fronts. Is this wrong and if so why?