More Dispatches from OKH: Q-ball (A) v Von Beanie (R) Rnd 2 v1.04

[Reconvet]

Top AAR by the way, thanks for sharing this. Has to be pretty nerve-wrecking for the SU player to deal with what you serve him here. [:)]

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko



I was being somewhat ironic.... but now that you mentioned it, why do you think units gain strength faster if attached to non Stavka armies (ie, front armies?).

My own strategy, when forming a shock armies who I need to perform better than others, is to leave them in white counters, ie attached directly to Stavka. Regular run of the mill, stop-the-Germans-at-all-costs armies get attached to Fronts. Is this wrong and if so why?

This should probably be discussed somewhere else. I'm not quite comfortable with hijacking AAR's.

STAVKA can't be 5 hexes near all new shell arrivals. 5 hexes are supply range, so these units fill up quicker near their direct HQ (admin leader roll). I place STAVKA armies in digging positions where I park shells until they are ready for front duty. Costs me 1 admin point per such a unit buildup (and subsequent transfer to a front army), but I get them fit for the front 1 or 2 turns sooner than if they fill up from a railhead.

[Q-Ball]

Anyway, back to the actual subject of the thread....[:D]

Turn 7 Dispatches from OKH:

I was away from the game a couple days, and it's late, not alot of time to sum-up. But I will.

In the NORTH, I made good progress around Leningrad, using HQ BUILDUP for one corps to make good progress, while the other Panzers had pretty good fuel. The Railhead is only a few hexes away, so supplies are not as much of a problem as elsewhere. See the map for progress, but I think it looks good so far...

In the CENTER, my parsimonious allocation of Panzers is showing itself; only 3 Panzer Corps here total, between them the 2 Panzer Armies actually have fewer AFVs than either wing. I really just want to push close to Moscow for a winter line.

In the SOUTH, VB pulled off the Dnepr between Kiev and Cherkassy. We are crossing most of the 6th Army over, and are moving into the Ukraine. Other forces are approaching Kirovgrad. All the Factories in the bend are gone already, though.

OBSERVATION: 18th army starts with some of the best Infantry Divisions in the Wehrmacht, along with alot of artillery and Pioneers. This has been helpful!

[Klydon]

Nice job around Leningrad. Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them. He is in big trouble there as fortifications around the city are almost nil and you should have no issues pushing him behind the Volkhov. Those guys on the hills will still be tough to kick out of there with level 3 forts in the rough, but after they are gone, that should free some space up. 

[Aussiematto]

Nice work --- or. to some extent, less than perfect defence. I am having to close down the supply ports in my game - no chance of getting into Leningrad itself. fortunately, the strength of infantry in the city has meant the river was easily breached. Interestingly, the AI garrisons Leningrad and the Volkhov Line intensely -- perhaps reflecting GG's contention that Leningrad is the key objective? 

[EntropyAvatar]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them.  

I didn't think you could rail troops through a hex in the enemy ZOC.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: EntropyAvatar

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them.  

I didn't think you could rail troops through a hex in the enemy ZOC.

You can't, but there is another rail line going into Leningrad to the east that the Russians can use to get into Leningrad proper.

[EntropyAvatar]

Ah, my apologies.

[Oleg Mastruko]

I really think you didn't need Panzers for what you're doing near LG... You could have borrowed ligh blue INF corps from AGM, and leave them Panzers they BADLY need. Panzers should be used to make encirclements, not to bulldoze the way forward.

[Mynok]

IIRC, 2nd Army (light blue) is not nearly as experienced as the other German units. He would be better off shipping a veteran corps from 4th army and replacing it in the line with the 2nd Army. You need quality troops to take Leningrad.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
IIRC, 2nd Army (light blue) is not nearly as experienced as the other German units. He would be better off shipping a veteran corps from 4th army and replacing it in the line with the 2nd Army. You need quality troops to take Leningrad.

That's probably even better thing to do. However light blue units (an army? I thought it's a corps) are unlocked on turn 2 or 3, so are easily railed to AGN area, while 4th Army veterans are by that time already commited in AGM sector.

Anyhow, my point (and yours probably too) is that he doesn't need that many panzers up there. Infantry, maybe, even though for what he did in this game maybe he didn't even need the additional infantry neither. You need additional units if you're doing right hook over Volkhov river.... Q-Ball did left hook or direct approach.

My point being, great that he will most probably take LG, but it appears he will pay a heavy price in other sectors....

[Mynok]

I agree it's probably time to send 4th panzer down to give 16th army some punch.

As far as 4th army goes, you'd want to plan from the start to get a corps up there of course. Easiest ones would be two small ones (4 divs, same as 2nd army) that start behind the line that I use to take Brest-Litovsk. They'll be right on the rail then and can move north immediately.

[Altaris]

18th Army does indeed start off very nice. In particular, I Corps is in good shape if you put a top-notch leader in the Corps (I like Model for this one personally). I've thought about putting II Corps in 18th Army as well (18th is a little better than the II Corps native 16th Army), as it has a really nice punch to it too. Having I and II Corps as your hard hitters in AGN seems a good way to go for relatively cheap AP investment. The rest of 18th Army could provide an ideal "second string" for a really hard hitting army. I did something similar in my PBEM and manage to swing all the way around Lake Ilmen to the east and link up to the Finns, with I and II Corps leading the way and punching some really nice holes in the enemy lines.

[Klydon]

Actually, I think it worked out that he committed that type of panzer force to get to Leningrad because he got there fast enough that if he pulls them out now and refits for a turn, it is still early enough in the campaign he can send them someplace else and still have enough time to achieve some pretty decisive results. By getting stuff to Leningrad this fast, he actually cuts down on a lot of casualties and slogging through fortified Russians. What defenses the Russians have there won't last long against a 18th army that has not really been ground down fighting through the outlying fortifications. 

[PeeDeeAitch]

My own 2 cents.  Too often the Panzers become untouchable, used only for deep exploitation.  Looking at the German successes, they drove the Panzers just as hard as any other units (look at the active AFV totals by late Sept 1941).  The 1941 campaign is an all out, caution to the wind, drive hard even with panzers type of campaign.
 
They can rest and regroup in the cities/urban areas in the Blizzard...

[Aussiematto]

In operational terms the panzers committed to the assault on leningrad are not there to hammer fortified swampy infantry but to drive past them. I open holes in the defences, use the big movement values for the panzers to go through ZOCs and exploit a couple of hexed into the Russian defences. if you can get the supply right, you eventually get a chance to dash some panzers into the Ladoga ports. As elsewhere, avoid combat with panzers, and use them to manoeuvre the enemy into untenable positions.

On the 2nd Army question - the problem with 2nd Army (which can be just XXXVth Corps or one of the OKH reserve corps as well) is not just experience but, IMO, the lack of support units. In one AI game, I got 2nd Army stuck into some heavy fighting and had to burn APs to transfer support units from other corps. I now try to use 2nd Army as a screening force between AGN and AGC. If you do want to give 2nd Army some grunt (artillery and pioneers) raid the support units from the RHG headquarters -eg rail the RHG command from AGS (which has around 4 artillery units) until it's close to XXXVth corps HQ and point and click the support units across. Then disband the command to eke out a few thousand more men. Another option is to offload one of 9th Army to 2nd Army, picking a corps with lots of support, and the redistribute them between the 2 corps.

What I love about this game is that you have to think ahead -- you can shunt stuff around between areas and armies but it has to be done on a realistic timetable.

matt

[Klydon]

I would point out the Germans did pull out PG 2 and PG 3 for an approximately 2 week rest. I think above all the Germans have to be smart about the use of their panzer forces and this includes the range of knowing when to push it and when to rest em. Tired panzer troops just don't have the punch and are that much more vulnerable to a Russian counter move. My point is that the panzers have basically done their job up around Leningrad (paved the way to get the infantry there as quickly as possible). Pushing the Russians behind the Volkhov and wiping out Leningrad can be pretty much accomplished with the infantry at hand. The Volkhov line becomes totally unhinged once the Finns are officially in unless the Russians just want to lose more troops for no real purpose. The panzers there can either go back to AGC to help with the push there or to AGS to lay the hammer in good tank country. 

[Q-Ball]

OKH Dispatches, Turn 8:

A good debate on use of Panzers around Leningrad; this turn, I kept them all committed, because you can't clear 2-3 rows of hexes without Panzers, and I needed to cut the land connection to the city. Which we did.

Von Beanie, though, has prepared a very strong line along the Neva. With those troops there, and all the RR capacity he has used moving forts, he can't have much along the Vokhov. I think we need to push that way, and fast.

I appreciate that the terrain up there is not ideal for Panzers. At some point I will have to move them. But I really feel you need to push as hard and fast as possible to have a shot at Leningrad, and reaching Lake Ladoga on Turn 8 is pretty fast.

AGC: The drive on Bryansk stalled for lack of fuel. See shot below.

3rd Panzer Group (really, just one 4-division Panzer Corps plus infantry), is pushing on Vyazma. The objective here is just to create space toward Moscow.

AGS: 6th and 4th Armies are entirely across the Dnepr, and moving toward Sumy and Poltava.

We are pushing toward Krivoi Rog, which still has factories, but I expect those to be gone next turn. I hope I can get to D-Town or Z-Town in time to threaten those factories, but resistance has been tough down here.

[Klydon]

Yeah, not getting one hex further east hurt from the standpoint of how much he was able to stuff into Leningrad. Oh well, more to capture later.

[Aussiematto]

Nice, very nice... do you think you can crack the city directly, without putting it out of supply? I am wary - my current PBEM has focused on getting to the ports and I've got many more infantry trapped inside Leningrad if I do. Be careful not to crush your infantry in the brutality of street - fighting. I think the design of WITE is really influenced by the Stalingrad situation - where apparently overwhelming odds (eg 100,000 men + with multiple artillery, support tanks, pioneers - what you get from 6 divisions, 2 corps) can be held up by troops in fort 4 cities.