Close Combat – Last Stand Arnhem is a highly enhanced new release of Close Combat, using the latest Close Combat engine with many additional improvements. Its design is based on the critically acclaimed Close Combat – A Bridge Too Far, originally developed by Atomic Games, as well as the more recent Close Combat: The Longest Day. This is the most ambitious and most improved of the new Close Combat releases, but along with all the enhancements it retains the same addicting tactical action found in the original titles! Close Combat – Last Stand Arnhem comes with expanded force pools, reserve & static battlegroups, a troop point buying system, ferry and assault crossings, destructible bridges, static forces and much more! Also included in this rebuild are 60+ battles, operations and campaigns including a new enhanced Grand Campaign!
no tripod in the 3 men mg teams. Its the version with the bipod attached.
I'm not sure how the 1250 rounds is justified in the other mods, but I'd bet the gunner carry the mg and bipod, and the other 2 guys are ammo feeder. Both could bring 500 rounds each, thus 1000 rnds, and the gunner could have one 250 ammo belt around the neck or already loaded in the mg
the germans also had a DRUM magazine for the light version of the mg 42 with the bipod. not sure how many rds were in it, but still 1250 rounds is not a stretch IMHO
I think the current settings for ammo are based on supply records Steve had found and if you think about it to some extent the ammo availability limits the MG42's effectiveness in context of the game. So the current data on that works well for two reasons. The MG42's should be given respect when discovered due to their effectiveness in LSA but they also don't have free reign over the CC battlefield in LSA due to low ammo supply.
Again, important to consider these factors in context of the GC. I don't see any one setting currently adversely effecting the outcome or producing an unintended result. We'll consider changing the building protection values for future updates.
Still looking for more feedback on all this stuff. Please keep it coming.
the germans also had a DRUM magazine for the light version of the mg 42 with the bipod. not sure how many rds were in it, but still 1250 rounds is not a stretch IMHO
The drum magazine had 50 rnds for the 42, 75 rnds for the 34 (like in the game).
However the MG34 in tanks had 150 rnds per belt, not 250 like in the game.
Real men fire it next to the shoulder laying on the ground and aiming alone with an iron sight.
MG3 was just the same using only 7.62mm instead of 7.92 mm.
I think the game models it good.
In bidod mode we usually had 200 rounds, sometimes 300 rounds, it depends on supply.
I cant say anything about tripod usage as I had never used the MG3 in tripod mode in the german army.
Putting ammo loads dictated in war manuals aside.... When you go into a battle you bring whatever you can hump. If people were to make a game about Afghanistan, and went from our manual (Canadian)that said 150rounds was standard battle load, they would be entirely wrong. You bring all your ammo which is usually double load, some ammo for your section LMG and a few people bring ammo for the platoon MMG. A three man team would be really weighted down carrying 1250 rounds of anything thats 7mm and above, but having that much ammo available throughout the platoon is realistic.
i agree with Mooxe.....there are numerous 1st hand accounts of just what Mooxe is saying.......weapons and ammo loads in real WW2 life isnt what the manual says. the more ammo,grenades and MG's your squad , platoon or Company had the better. from the accounts i have read about market garden from the german point of view, i would say 450 rds is a bit low for the 3 man LMG squad.
the germans did at times have an ammo problem, but as the campaign progressed the germans got more of everything. FM Model gave the 9ss and 10ss direct access to his HQ for supply and reinforcment requests. they got what they wanted when they wanted it.
i would say the poorer quality troops in LSA should have 450 rds in there LMG squads and the better quality troops like the SS and Fallshirmjager should have 750 to 1000. that would be a good compromise IMHO. [:)]
I just looked through this thread and don't see where I agreed we'd make any changes to the MG42 ammo. If I missed it please re-post the entire post and I'll clarify for you what I'd said. I see I'd asked for more feedback on the changes to MG42 lethality and agreed with some points about MG42 lethality/non-lethality but outside of that I don't recall agreeing further changes, from the initial changes, needed to be made. If I did and I've missed it, I'll be glad to make it right. I suspect that something I've said was taken out of context or I wasn't being clear. Please let me know and I'll be glad to clarify for you.
Hi Oddball........i see a back pedal coming ....if this isnt you saying that you agree we should make a change i dont know what is. you wont get any more players contributing to this thread [ and didnt ] or any of the other threads. the ones that post ..us few are the only ones who are trying to improve the game. there arnt many players playing LSA out there, thus no one posts.
AND its about ammo loads for the LMG.
i wrote
[quote]i agree with Mooxe.....there are numerous 1st hand accounts of just what Mooxe is saying.......weapons and ammo loads in real WW2 life isnt what the manual says. the more ammo,grenades and MG's your squad , platoon or Company had the better. from the accounts i have read about market garden from the german point of view, i would say 450 rds is a bit low for the 3 man LMG squad.
the germans did at times have an ammo problem, but as the campaign progressed the germans got more of everything. FM Model gave the 9ss and 10ss direct access to his HQ for supply and reinforcment requests. they got what they wanted when they wanted it.
i would say the poorer quality troops in LSA should have 450 rds in there LMG squads and the better quality troops like the SS and Fallshirmjager should have 750 to 1000. that would be a good compromise IMHO.
Tejszd wrote
Good comprise recommendation Stiener that would makes sense historically too....
and then here you are Oddball........ Yep thanks for the suggestion Stiener, good idea.
No backpedaling. I don't see any promise that it would get changed. I'm pretty careful about promising such things as there are many folks interests to take into account, not just one. Lots of good ideas are posted all the time and I regularly acknowledge them as such and thank folks for taking the time to offer them for consideration.
I sent you a PM saying basically the same thing as I'm saying here. We'll give it a look and consider it but that's NOT a guarantee or representation of any kind that anything will be changed on MG42 ammo. IF... IF any changes are deemed in order they definitely will not be in this release as the production process for this release is to far along to consider any new changes for it.
I recently played through the old CC2 campaign, and there are a few points from it that seem relevant. Since I just reinstalled it on a new system, it was totally stock again.
-Mg42 3 man teams have 1250 rounds. They still run out of ammo quickly, but their lethality on open maps is extreme. Troops caught in the open or with only light cover within 90m of the mg are typically wiped out. With 1250 rounds, a single well placed team can determine the course of the battle. In buildings I haven't noticed quite the level of damage to a squad in cover that has been discussed here. At medium range, the squad being fired on often suffers one or two casualties, but the mg42 team cannot imo afford to waste ammunition in that manner.
-Rifles are mostly only useful for suppressing fire, as mentioned here. In decent cover at 80m, units can sit and wait until the rifle team firing at them runs out of ammo.
-Hand to hand combat and grenade usage is extremely important, and is necessary in almost every map. This presented some problems in the old game because the grenade and hand to hand combat models were a bit wonky. Grenades often killed whole squads, or missed entirely. Melee combat was always a bit mystifying, I had a 4 man reserve team annihilated by a single wounded bazooka man in hand to hand combat.
These characteristics greatly affect the way the campaign plays out and how one must play the battles to achieve the strategic objectives. As the Germans, a very well placed mg42 could dominate the entire map. On the other hand, the typically larger number of men in Allied squads gave them an edge in close combat, so if you could get close enough to the German unit, you could usually overwhelm it in a direct attack.
So from experience with the old game, it seems clear that any change to the Mg42 squad or its ammunition count will cause some pretty large shifts in game balance. Of course, I was personally pretty happy with how the old game was, even with its odd quirks, but I am quite looking forward to this game!
I find MG42 as lethal as it should be. It was the best MG of the II WW [:D]
What I think should be tweaked, are the single shot weapons like rifles. I THINK with the new way the hits are being calculated, rifles are fairly too weak - I use them mostly for surpessing enemy units.
