Zero Bonus nerfed?

[seille]

I´ll try it, but i bet the hurricanes will just get the bounce and i lose twice the amount i lost with my sweeps [;)]
We´ll see. I´m willing to try things to find solutions. But i think the dive advantage by the higher altitude will be more important than
my manouvre band advantage. Lol, maybe the zeroes can evade the diving planes and their bullets better....
As i wrote in my case the allied fighters got a VERY early radar detection so they can prepare.....

[Rob Brennan UK]

With regard to alt advantage the higher planes only get the 'bounce' once , so its better to fight at an alt that your planes get a manouver advantage. EG flying zeros at 30k vs hurricanes at 35k will kill a lot more zeros than if you stay down low.

from PBEM experince vs offenceman we have multiple alt bands used and every combat can be a crap shoot depending on which aircraft meet first. also I've learnt to respect the Ki-45 Nicks far more than i expected to. those planes just dont go down to multiple .303's and thier 20mm can down hurricanes. but mix them up with oscars as well and give it a whirl.

[crsutton]

Well, viperpol and I are about 700 turns into our scenario #2 and my other opponent and I are about 400 turns. These are my observations in our games so far.

P40 and zero are fairly even. Zero wins a few more air battles (initial pilot quality) but takes more op losses.
Zero owns the wildcat especially with better pilots.
Zero is better than the hurricane which is better than the oscar.
Tojo comes on line and Japan builds 100 million a month [:D] Tojo is king until mid 1943.
Lightning is better than all above but service rating of 3 and small replacment rate limits its use. It is not useful if flown from foward fields.
Early corsairs are as good as the lightning but still stuck with 3 service rating and you do not get enough
Jack and tony come on line in 43. Both are good and give Japan better ability to shoot down bombers. Corsairs and lightnings are better. All have service rating of 3.
Hellcat comes in mid 43 and is a great all around fighter. Tojo killer.
George comes on a little later and is a good fighter with great armament but not fast enough. Lightning and corsair are better.
P47 comes on around 7/43. "Nothing" beats a P47. [&o]

Viperpol can add his comments he might have some different views, but this is my experience.

Note, we have a 29,000 ft height CAP. If you do not have a height CAP, then the plane that can fly higher is going to do much better overall.

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, viperpol and I are about 700 turns into our scenario #2 and my other opponent and I are about 400 turns. These are my observations in our games so far.

P40 and zero are fairly even. Zero wins a few more air battles (initial pilot quality) but takes more op losses.
Zero owns the wildcat especially with better pilots.
Zero is better than the hurricane which is better than the oscar.
Tojo comes on line and Japan builds 100 million a month [:D] Tojo is king until mid 1943.
Lightning is better than all above but service rating of 3 and small replacment rate limits its use. It is not useful if flown from foward fields.
Early corsairs are as good as the lightning but still stuck with 3 service rating and you do not get enough
Jack and tony come on line in 43. Both are good and give Japan better ability to shoot down bombers. Corsairs and lightnings are better. All have service rating of 3.
Hellcat comes in mid 43 and is a great all around fighter. Tojo killer.
George comes on a little later and is a good fighter with great armament but not fast enough. Lightning and corsair are better.
P47 comes on around 7/43. "Nothing" beats a P47. [&o]

Viperpol can add his comments he might have some different views, but this is my experience.

Note, we have a 29,000 ft height CAP. If you do not have a height CAP, then the plane that can fly higher is going to do much better overall.

I agree with this completely, In my first PBEM as an allied player - the P47 was my Savior, all those pilots you rotated back home you bring them back out to fly the Jug and its just a massacre, I didn't fly them with anyone under 70exp instead entire squadrons were replaced by high exp pilots. Corsairs I did the same, however I didn't have enough decent marine pilots so it was a crap shoot.

I have a 30,000 ft CAP in every PBEM i played, since mainly most aircraft did not generally operate at this alt.
Also it keeps one side from sweeping at max Alt, an unfair advantage in my eyes when you wouldn't be that far up anyway since you can't see anything below you.

P40s were an allied front line fighter till 43, P39s were great for bomber CAP, however in a fighter role it was terrible, as Japanese I basically stuck with Tojos, Ki-61s and finally Ki-84s while the only way I coudld knock down bombers was using bombardments, I have no idea what to do about 4E's

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM. It is February 42, and I feel like I have already lost the war in the air. Doesnt matter how bad I outnumber the Hurries and Hawks, my hordes of Hayabusas and Zeroes(I have hand picked the pilots, every single one flying Zeroes is 70+ EXP, Hayabusas 65+), cant get a shot in, cant destroy them, nothing. Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down. Zeroes just damaged it. I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

Now 8 days of constant air combat, Japanese(sweeping Rangoon/Moulmein) typically outnumber the British 2:1 up to 4:1, but they still suffer K/D below 1. What exactly can I do differently, apart from exploiting higher ceiling? I cycle the units so they all still have morale above 75 and average fatigue below 20. I know that in the long run I can attrit those aircraft types, but as the war progresses, this will only get worse. Cant wait to meet 4Es, P-38s and P-47s!

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man. Those troops are stuck at Moulmein because they cant push the brits back. War lost in Feb 42. No wonder people play Scen 2?!?

War is not lost. You're way to negative my friend. You're not killilng my men by ariel bombing at Moulmein since I'm in fortifications. I'm killing your men as they are not in fortifications.

You're also killing me in great numbers in China after a bad start. You've done a great job at turning that fiasco around.

[Nomad]

I have nothing to say any more.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Try use several squadrons sweeps, at different altitude at the same time. For exampe at 6000, 15000 and 25000 feet. Low flying planes might take the CAP lower, and then high flying squadron get the DIVE!

Also, if Zero or Oscar don't cope with Hurricanes at 25000 feet, try use them lower. At 10000 feet Zero and Oscar have notable manuever advantage.

BTW, are you using Ic -model Oscars? Ia and Ib models have lousy weapons, they won't kill anything...

He's down because the FOW is playing a trick on him. AVG has lost almost 85 planes, most to A2A. Hurricanes are at about 40 losses. So he's done well, just that he doesn't know it.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man.

That might be a terrain thing, there's an enormous difference between clear terrain and everything else.

He's also forgetting that my troops have AAA protection, thus that disrupts his bombers and reduces his accuracy and my boys are in forts. His troops are not in forts and I don't think they have AAA.

I think that goes a long way to explain the descrepancies he is noticing between our airforces.

I'm also finding that the Hurri is a stand-out plane. I have Air Group 221 HQ in Rangoon and all Hurries are attached to that HQ. This has dramatically kept my units repaired/operational. I can always put 40+ Hurries in the air. Before I attached them to 221 I wasn't doing well.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: seille

I have similar experiences like Erkki fighting the hurricane over southern India.

I think if you're fighting in Southern India at all, you can't really complain about the game being too biased against the Japanese! [X(]

Boots on feet and bases captured are what matters, if you can reach out and grab India - an impossibility, IRL - then thats pretty good going I think.

[seille]

@EUBanana

I fight over southern India, all i grabbed is Burma except Akyab. And i did not complain about imbalance at all,
i just complained about the extreme bad performance of my Zero/Oscar against Hurricane. That´s all.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: seille

@EUBanana

I fight over southern India, all i grabbed is Burma except Akyab. And i did not complain about imbalance at all,
i just complained about the extreme bad performance of my Zero/Oscar against Hurricane. That´s all.

OK, fair enough. [:)]

[seille]

Here are my latest results.
As some guys suggested i lowered the altitude to more favorable bands and it worked BETTER.
The first attack was bad for me, but these Zeros doesn´t have the high XP pilots i talked about
The Oscars i let flew in their best band they performed well.

My observation was that even the hurries got the dive i was able to evade it more often, but also that XP matters a lot.
The first attacking own unit suffers usually the most from enemy CAP. The following seem to use a disorder.
Overall i wasn´t unhappy. The result is at least not worse than the ones i flew at about 30k feet. And that was a surprise.
Thanks to the guys pointing me on that !

Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24



Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 31


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed (unit has less than 60 XP on average)

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 21000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 10 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
No.135 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 46 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 36



Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 19


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 3 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 15000 feet *

CAP engaged:
No.135 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 162 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3



Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 21000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
No.135 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters to 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes

[spence]

The Very Hard Difficulty Level picked by the initial poster explains the poor results attained by his Zeros pretty adequately.

Zero owns the wildcat especially with better pilots.

How does this square with the results of the four 1942 carrier battles that actually occurred?

It is not hard to argue that the IJN did not win even a single one of them. When they inflicted heavier losses than they suffered (2 of the 4 battles) they were utterly unable to exploit the results of the such battles strategically, operationally or even tactically. No country can afford to "win" very many battles in that fashion.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I am not a big believer in altitude being king from the standpoint of higher is always better.  What I do believe about altitude is that altitude bands are important to make proper use of. The P40E is good against a Zero below 16k. A Hurri is good against an A6M2 at higher altitudes, etc.  The higher overall durability of Allied aircraft and lower overall gun value of Japanese aircraft have a big role as well.  If you fight at an altitude that favors the opponent, in a less durable crate that has less gun value; you will come out badly.  Add in pilot experience and if you also fight with near equal experience pilots, things are going to go poorly.  Try to make the Allies fight in the altitude band of YOUR choosing. For example, set those bombers at 16k if fighting the P40s and make them fly where the Zero outclasses them.  Make the enemy fly a lot which will eventually ground some of them and give you more numerical advantage.  and Read LoBaron's air coordination guide.  

offenseman -

This is very much in line with my approach; and is a very clear explanation of why this tactic would (or should!) work.

Thank You,

Mac

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Try use several squadrons sweeps, at different altitude at the same time. For exampe at 6000, 15000 and 25000 feet. Low flying planes might take the CAP lower, and then high flying squadron get the DIVE!

Also, if Zero or Oscar don't cope with Hurricanes at 25000 feet, try use them lower. At 10000 feet Zero and Oscar have notable manuever advantage.

BTW, are you using Ic -model Oscars? Ia and Ib models have lousy weapons, they won't kill anything...

Puhis -

Good advice, I will give it a go.

Thank You, Sir!

[seille]

It was indeed good advice by Puhis and offensemen. I´ll not use a Zero again at 30k.
Below 20k they performed much better against the Hurri. Same for the Oscar.
Learned lesson: Always keep an eye on best manoeuvre bands.
Many thanks again.

[PresterJohn001]

In Burma (Early '42) , the Allies do not have enough ground or Air forces to stop the Japanese despite Hurricanes being a pain.

Tojo when it comes is a great workhorse, has formed the backbone of my fighters until mid '43, badly outclassed now tho. Tony is good but service
rating restricts it use to main bases + short range. Navy fighters, Jack and George look good, but very few squadrons able to use them so be careful
with upgrades or it may be late '43 before you can deploy them. PDU ftw not.

Last advice, its important to understand the in-game capabilities of your units and play with them, not what you want them to be. Decide your goal and use
your units to achieve it. Part of the fun is working out how best to use your units and is something i'm far from mastering.

[Chickenboy]

Cap N Gown had a really nice idea about using Tonys on the defensive. Set up a squadron 'rotation' on a rail line between two bases. That way, the 'repair' base can be railed to to rebuild the unit once it was combat ineffective due to high numbers of disabled aircraft.

For all the island bases or bases w/o rail strat movement option, use your low (e.g., 1) service rating fighters.