Some Alternate Ideas

[PeeDeeAitch]

Well, the German players have seen openign turn moves that help, but recently I have thought about some new maneuvers. I am trying Charon Jrs moving two of the 2nd panzer group's corps to the south - that did open things up a lot. However, in the though process, another other idea came to me:

4th Panzer Group to Center - After the first turn, seizing the Dvina with the 4th Panzer Group, move it en masse along the north bank of the Dvina toward Vitebsk. Imagine turn 4 suprise when there are three panzer groups at the landbridge (and maybe 2 of them with an early HQ buildup...) to blow the center wide open. From this an early drive to Moscow might be possible (though there better be doubled up RR repair), or a 3rd and 4th Panzer group swing to the north...just to angry up the blood of the people who think it shouldn't happen.

Downside is that the 18th, 16th, and elements of the 9th Armies will not be able to drive very far.


The point in thinking of this was to have the Germans able to retain the initiative longer. That is the key to getting the most out of the opening turns. A grand encirclement around Smolensk on turn 4 is a psychological blow to the Soviets, seeing two panzer groups poised to seemingly gang tackle Moscow (whether they do or not) also is another blow. This could also easily lead to 2nd panzer heading south to open up the lower Dnepr.

I like options, I am not sure I will play this, but we have seen the weakening of AGC long enough - maybe it is time to try making it stronger to strike (potentially) any direction after turn 4/5/...

[Q-Ball]

The big problem with going all-in in AGC is that there is really only one objective: Moscow. And even if you capture Moscow, holding it isn't easy.

I hate to strip from AGN, where Leningrad offers real benefits: Freeing the Finns, plus it's very defensible. I don't see the Reds re-taking it before 1944, if you prepare properly.

In AGS, commitment of additional forces will put pressure on the Soviet player with factory evacs, and there are mutliple objectives that are useful.

Not that I wouldn't want Moscow.....but if you go all-in and fail, you are in trouble.

Interesting question though.

[Klydon]

Part of the issue is trying to find tangible benefits from a big drive in the south or one against Moscow. One of the reasons that Leningrad is so popular now is because it brings in the Finns and frees up German troops to go elsewhere. I am afraid that is part of the issue right now with the game is what are the benefits of knocking Moscow out or doing a drive in the south?

One of the things I have been considering (but not tested yet) is a PG2 upper cut from below the marshes. Basically, PG2 skirts south of the marshes and with 6th Army and part of PG1, make a hard push for Kiev with PG 2 heading back up to the middle to unhinge the river line/land bridge area. This concept gets things rolling in the south while also eventually taking care of the center as well where it starts to bog down at on the land bridge and the two rivers.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Klydon, I actually did this (in a sort) in my latest PBEM (no AAR for that one). I did a version of Charon Jrs 2 corps of PzG 2 to the south, then went all out for the Dnepr. I was across the Dnepr on turn 4, and linked up with the rest of the 2nd PzG (and the XIV corps from PzG 1) by turn 5. The Kiev Pocket was smaller than in my AAR, but I had freedom of movement and a rejoined 2nd PzG.

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The big problem with going all-in in AGC is that there is really only one objective: Moscow. And even if you capture Moscow, holding it isn't easy.

I think the threat to Moscow opens up options. Imagine the Soviets seeing possibly 4 panzer groups heading to Moscow, they will cover it strongly. That could leave a super "right hook" by 3rd and 4th, or any number of other possibilities. Why Soviet players know they can move troops around fast, the are not going to be well entrenched if just a turn or two before they were gloating at holding back the Axis toward Leningrad.

I see it more as a chance to keep initiative, I got lucky and took Moscow in my game - but the threat opens up things or else Moscow will fall. (also the central rail repair is always the furthest along, so that drive would have the best supply...hmmm)

[Klydon]

I have been giving it consideration for a couple of reasons. There have been some good opens with using additional PG2 forces cracking the river lines right below the swamps. The other is back in the day when I played a lot of FITE/Scorched Earth, I was part of the German side (4 of us played, 2 on each side) that did a limited free set up. I had north of the swamps and we kept 2 panzer corps up there while sending just about everything else south. The plan always was to do the upper cut and make a drive on Moscow from Kiev as it is fairly open with no major issues after getting past Kiev. I made the best progress I could in the north to try to keep the pressure on, but the southern panzer drive was just nasty with all that open terrain and it caught the other team by surprise by the amount of force behind it and the fact we went for Moscow rather than anything in the south despite starting the armor in the south. The Russians wound up surrendering after it became clear that they were not going to be able to stop the German attack short of Moscow before winter and also based on the amount of casualties we had caused (I was running the big meat grinder up north).

I do wish there were more tangible benefits from capturing Moscow or using a southern strategy in the game where it is easier to see the benefits of each. Until then, I think most German plans will be along the "Leningrad first" line.

[karonagames]

It is an interesting debate, for sure.

The "Moscow gambit" is the one that is on the tightest clock, as PDH found out. I haven't fully executed it myself apart from against very wimpy AI in my early days of testing.

4PZ has to advance on the line VL/RZhev, meeting up with 3 Panzer at Rzhez by about turn 8, to then assess whether a "wide left" approach via Kalinin or an "inside left" more direct approach on Moscow can be achieved. Meanwhile 2Pz and 1Pz have to pull off a Kiev Pocket by T8/9 then drive like hell toward Tula to form the "wide right" or via Kaluga for an "inside right" approach.

The potential to form a mega-pocket with Moscow and Vyazma at the centre is huge, but if the timing is off, there is very little time to redeploy to protect the very long flanks that will be hanging out to Leningrad in the north, and Dtown and Ztown in the south. This could be a win big/lose big option.

The "Leningrad Gambit" is less time sensitive, and if successful directly translates into a less damaging blizzard.

I am going to have to re-run my "Baku or Bust" game, because I cocked up the capture of the Crimea, and got too far behind the clock. I was able to build a pretty decent blizzard defence using corps-sized strong points, except in the south, and this undermined my whole plan

[PeeDeeAitch]

I would love to see a Vyazma mega-pocket some day.

[IdahoNYer]

I don't think any strategy offers more than taking Leningrad and freeing up the Finns. Just too many benefits for taking Leningrad and not enough for taking Moscow as the game stands right now. Not saying driving for Moscow is a bad idea - just shouldn't take troops away from Leningrad.

A concentrated drive Vyazma -Veliki Luki - Kalinin offers the wide flanking option toward Leningrad and also opens up the north of Moscow. 4th and 3rd Pz Grps driving here threaten both cities.

Just wish there was a (optional rule probably) rule for Soviet Gov collapse if Moscow falls in 1941. Not a sure thing, but a percentage roll - would provide some real incentive for the Germans to go after Moscow, even in a Typhoon like drive foregoing the more conservative "October time dig fest" in preparation for blizzard.

[Aussiematto]

The benefit of heading for Leningrad is pretty significant; there's also the supply line question. Because you can get the supply line to Pskov very quickly, through the Baltic states, just as everywhere else the panzers are running out of fuel, in the north they are very potent.

Part of the problem is that a concentrated attack is easier to defend; I think the real power of the Panzer groups is in keeping them moving into places where they can threaten multiple directions at the same time. The defender either has to cover both (so too few in both places), or one. Then, simply, attack where the enemy isn't emphasising movement over fighting.

In my most recent game, I had both 2nd and 3rd Pz Groups north of Smolensk, looking like a drive on Moscow. Now, this turn, I've just thrown most of 2nd Pz group due south, towards Bryansk and just missed the link up with 6th Army (one bad die-roll / stout Russian defence). 3rd Pz Group is still threatening Moscow / or could go north to meet the 4th Pz, or could push south east towards Tula. Once committed, however, my opponent will know .

Matt

[PeeDeeAitch]

In my AAR I kept the 3rd Panzer waiting to the East of Smolensk when the 2nd did its dash to close the Kiev Pocket.  It was a "threat in being" that kept forces nearby, and eventually when I made my push to Moscow it was well rested - The idea of 7 motorized/armored units can't be ignored, especially when they haven't moved in a couple of weeks.

[Klydon]

I would love to see Moscow affect the Russian national moral by say 5. Good worthwhile ding to them, but not absolutely a crusher.

[Pipewrench]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I would love to see Moscow affect the Russian national moral by say 5. Good worthwhile ding to them, but not absolutely a crusher.

+1

[PeeDeeAitch]

Taking it does affect the Soviet Player's morale I think...not his units, but his.

[Mynok]

Yeah, but he'll get over it, and so will the Soviets.

[buchand]

I suppose the question is whether a mega Vyazma pocket would be a 'knock out' blow. Leningrad makes it 'better' but doesn't seem to be decisive? Ignoring hindsight would any 'great' commander go for the less damaging strategy or the risky but possibly war winning one?
I know game may not lend itself to this but this leads us back to is WITE a historical simulation v kreigspreil I suppose [8|]

[findmeifyoucan]

Hey guys, talking about taking Kiev should I be trying to take it with my armor or wait for the infantry?

[Klydon]

Armor is not very good against urban hexes in this game, especially if they are dug in as well. Job for the infantry as even the motorized infantry seem to suck against them. 

[findmeifyoucan]

So I noticed that the German army is not allowed into Russia from Finland. They stop at the Finnish border. How come? Is there anything on releasing the German's from this restriction? So right now no point transporting German's to Finland if they have to stay in Finland. lol