CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

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JWE
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CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by JWE »

vettim89 asked a good question and made me look at this a bit more deeply. What I found suggests this ought to have its own thread. Interesting stuff. So, here's the question and the first pass at an answer. [ed] we were talking CD guns ..
ORIGINAL: vettim89
Which explains why the Saipain Naval fortress is so hard to deal with in game?
Ok, checked things out and must say, no. Looked at stock, too. Not exactly sure what part of it is "hard to deal with", the offensive part or defensive part.

As to defense, Saipan Fortress has no intrinsic fort number for the LCU, and none of the CD guns have any armor value. Saipan Base starts with fort=4 but I'll bet the little termites are digging furiously the whole game long. So it's not much different from any other LCU in concrete bunkers. But there is a great big caveat, here.

As to offense, it has 21 naval guns from 5" to 6" (no real big deal), 4 short 8" guns (absolute pigs), and 4 3" DPs. Doesn't look ugly at all. Except ... there is a nice big benefit (chance to hit) for LCUs of Type=11 (Coastal Defense Unit) and Suffix=115 (Fortress). Probably why Fortress was added as a Suffix, yeah? Think the idea was to model all the range markers, directors, long-base rangefinders, etc., of a real, live, honest to gosh, long term, established fortress. And yes, Saipan is a 115 Fortress.

So there's no reason why Saipan's LCUs would be overly resistant to Naval (or Air) Bombardment (except for the caveat); at least not any more so than any other LCU. But there is a good reason for Saipan's 'Fortress' LCU to deal out a nasty bit of punishment.

The Caveat:

Think we found why Naval Bombardment seems to be anemic, and often ineffective. Juggling six different routines, to be certain, but looks like there’s a data inconsistency with the code numerical requirements. The code, frankly, is fabulous in this area: it treats suppression, disruption, all the right things. But the input numeric spread required to let the routine play, doesn’t quite conform to the data spread, defined for certain data fields, seen in bombarding naval vessels. Most of the data burp is a vestige from WiTP. The code was tweaked in wonderful ways, but somehow the implications didn’t port through to the data guys; thus …
dwg
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by dwg »

ORIGINAL: JWE
there is a nice big benefit (chance to hit) for LCUs of Type=11 (Coastal Defense Unit) and Suffix=115 (Fortress). Probably why Fortress was added as a Suffix, yeah? Think the idea was to model all the range markers, directors, long-base rangefinders, etc., of a real, live, honest to gosh, long term, established fortress.

Nice! Not obvious, but nicely modelled.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

Nice touch there ! grats. Good to see permanent fort structures have that sort of bonus imo.

the programming details however are so far above my head they leave contrails.
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
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witpqs
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by witpqs »

Cool, John. Are you implying (or have you yet formed an opinion as to whether) the data can be made to play better with the routines, or would code changes be required?
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by herwin »

What's the Japanese equivalent of the oozlefinch, and how many were present at Saipan?

The Saipan fortress had about three times the coastal defence assets allocated to the Seeloewe landing zone (more or less 'planned' as a Korps landing). It also looks like about three times the assets available at Tarawa (a reinforced Marine division).
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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JWE
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Cool, John. Are you implying (or have you yet formed an opinion as to whether) the data can be made to play better with the routines, or would code changes be required?
Code changes are no longer possible in the grand scheme of things. Data can be made to play much better together, like good little boys and girls. Think we have a good approach.

Ciao. J
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witpqs
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by witpqs »

Good news, then. And of course I asked "would code changes" rather than "will", 'cause I know the situation there.
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by spence »

The Saipan fortress had about three times the coastal defence assets allocated to the Seeloewe landing zone (more or less 'planned' as a Korps landing). It also looks like about three times the assets available at Tarawa (a reinforced Marine division).

___

Did it inflict all that much damage on either the transport fleet or the landing force (3 divisions)?
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JWE
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Good news, then. And of course I asked "would code changes" rather than "will", 'cause I know the situation there.
The code is actually pretty good. I kinda like a lot of the things that were done with it. The inconsistency is in the data. Different data fields are used in Nav Bombardment than Nav Combat, and those weren't tweaked quite as nicely as they could have been, given the code opportunities. f.x., there's some Japanese 4"-5" naval guns that effectively ground shoot 5 times more powerfully than any Allied 5" gun, and the Allied DD guns are practically ineffective in general against any ground target.

So gotta do a relative effectiveness thing, like what was done for artillery. Think I have a workable formula, that models the results of f.x., a 5" DD suite, against a comparable artillery battery, with certain 'adjustments' (to keep things from getting out of hand). Workability seems to extend all the way up to 8" (20cm). Almost there, with it. Good thing is it's only in the Device file, which updates cleanly into ongoing games. Horay!!
Mac Linehan
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RE: CD Guns and Naval Bombardment

Post by Mac Linehan »

JWE -

Very impressive - Thank You for your work!

I am in awe of the level of attention to detail the developers have taken with AE. Thank you all...

Mac
LAV-25 2147
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