Before the blizzard

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*Lava*
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Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

While folks have focused on the blizzard as being too harsh, I am of the camp which believes that the real problems, in trying to at least copy Axis historical gains, start way before the blizzard.

So I have been doing some testing of my own... via hotseat gaming and I have a few things which I find... interesting.

So here are a few of the things I thought were, at least in my mind, strange.

First... the air campaign, turn 1.

As the Axis, I started the game by bombing the Odessa port and heavy manufacturing there. I got two strikes and then was told my bombers lacked range for further attacks. I then switched to attacking airfields and found I could attack airfields all over Russia and even those far more distant than Odessa.

Strangeness factor here? The game does not allow me to conduct a strategic bombing campaign even when I have the bombers (regardless of what it tells me) to do so.

Second... routing Soviets.

As the Axis, I started the game by routing every single front line Soviet unit and then some.

Strangeness factor here? Every routed unit landed on a rail hex. This is great for the Soviet player who does not have to march these folks out of harms way and can instead use his extensive rail net.

Third... routed Soviets and defense.

As the Soviets, on turn 1, I railed all the routed units to what I determined to be strategic sites where I needed to build defenses to stop the Axis juggernaut. Places like Leningrad.

Strangeness factor here? On turn 2 all the routed units had changed status to unready. I disembarked all these units from the train. By turn 3 with only 1 ready unit I had a fort of 1. Turn two a fort of 2. Turn 5 I had 3 ready units and on turn 6 I had a level 3 fort. Picture later.

I have noticed also that every unit, including tank units, except HQs and airfields, will build a level 1 fort in one week if not moved. These guys really know how to dig! Not so sure that is strange, but it is noteworthy.

Fourth... Forts.

In the game, as we all know, a unit will dig in and progressively make better forts. In one case I found that the fort level declined if a unit was not there to maintain it. I find that realistic. Does this happen across the board? Not sure... not tested.

What I find strange is... a fort increasing in level with no unit in the hex.

Fifth... Soviet rail capacity.

While folks have pointed out that the Soviets have a tremendous amount of rail, I must say it is a huge country and as such I don't find this a particularly compelling argument, though perhaps a more realistic interpretation would be starting with less capacity and building up as time goes. The Soviets, like the Axis, have a certain amount of rail capacity and one uses that capacity based on the weight of the unit you are moving. If you have enough capacity to move the unit, you may load it and move it where ever you choose.

Strangeness factor here? What I do find strange is that the Soviets are so darned organized when it comes to railing about troops. I should think a herd of routers would be a lot more difficult to load, move and unload. Yes, granted if you move a unit too far (not sure what the distance criteria is), you have to pay Strategic points to load, move and unload the unit. But in general, if you move a front line routed unit, say from the northern front line to Leningrad, you have no problem plopping him in a great strategic position and unloading them and it costs just the same... measured by weight only. I find that strange.

Now all these things which I find strange obviously are built into the game for a reason. I don't know if anything which I have "found" is significant. But I think folks should be more focused on what is going on during the campaign of 41 if they truly are looking for more game balance, IMHO.

Ah... a picture of my turn 1 attack and all the Soviet routed units on rail hexes.



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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

Here is a shot of my three turn 1 routers placed in defense at Leningrad, and their state at turn 6. Note the red and blue circles.

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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

And just to get an idea of how much the Soviet can move by rail... here is a lineup on Turn 1:



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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by karonagames »

V1.03 Beta 3 – February 7, 2011
· New Features and Rule Changes

2. New Rules – Routed units may not move via rail or naval transport. Routed units will
not change their TOE.

18. Rule Clarification – Units that rout may only move to cities/towns that are less than 24
hexes away and which are on a linked rail line or are a linked port. If they are unable
to rout move to a valid HQ or city/town, they will surrender.
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

They still all route to rail hexes... [&:]

Or do they?

As the Axis I thought this unit was routed... but when I swapped to the Soviet seat... I found that wasn't true. A form of FOW? I like it if that is what is happening.



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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

FAT = fatigue right?

Here is a shot of a tank unit I routed (upper). I then move on him in the same move and he "displaces" (lower)... with less FAT?



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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by karonagames »

hmmm... I would put that in tech support for Pavel to look at - he doesn't check all sections of the forum.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by Q-Ball »

That tank shot is good, but be careful what you pick apart. Good feedback is appreciated.

Bob responded with a couple changes, you should upgrade to the latest version.

If you did, you'll know that the Soviets do have rail capacity to move alot of units, OR move alot of factories, but not both. Using all your rail on units is a mistake that you will pay for long-term vs. a human player; have you ever played a human?

Forts don't rise in value without a unit there. You either have a bug or you're reading it wrong. As far as fort construction in general, it is acknowledged to be too fast and is being addressed in the next update; see the post in main forum.

I am probably coming off condescending, but we need constructive feedback, not feedback based on older versions, unrealistic strategies, flawed or bugged observations, or ones that have been noted and are being addressed.

That tank unit looks like a problem though

PS: That unit that was routed then not, it RALLIED. Units do that in one of the between turn phases, I think Logistics. Not all, you have to pass a die roll and a few other conditions.
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

V1.03 Beta 3 – February 7, 2011
· New Features and Rule Changes

2. New Rules – Routed units may not move via rail or naval transport. Routed units will
not change their TOE.

Cool!

I have Beta 2 (for some reason)... thus the difference.
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Forts don't rise in value without a unit there.

Maybe I missed something... but I doubt my game is bugged.
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am probably coming off condescending

Yep!

Just making some observations, Mate. Think the entrance fee allows me to do that.

I loaded the 1.03 beta when it was announced and was unaware that a further release had occurred.

Chill, brother.
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*Lava*
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

Nope.. didn't miss anything.

Forts increased by themselves:



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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

And BTW...

I checked the members download section and have the latest available installed.

Cheers!
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by karonagames »

checked the members download section and have the latest available installed.

I will have to check whether the civilian diggers will increase unoccupied forts, but then that doesn't explain why the fort decreased. It wouldn't hurt to put it in tech support for Pavel to check.
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*Lava*
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I will have to check whether the civilian diggers will increase unoccupied forts, but then that doesn't explain why the fort decreased. It wouldn't hurt to put it in tech support for Pavel to check.

Normally... there is an explanation. [;)]

We've all done testing of some sort. Some just differently than others.

I'll post the tank FAT and fort thing in tech support.
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Klydon
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by Klydon »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
checked the members download section and have the latest available installed.

I will have to check whether the civilian diggers will increase unoccupied forts, but then that doesn't explain why the fort decreased. It wouldn't hurt to put it in tech support for Pavel to check.

Yeah, what I was thinking (civilian diggers at work).

Some good finds, especially with the tank unit.
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by Kel »

Based on 5 pbem games, 3 as the Soviet and 2 as the German, the issues I detected before the blizzard, are the following:

1/ The Soviet units are able to fortify too quickly, and the fortification bonus is a bit too high.I witnessed level 3 forts just 4 weeks after the start of Barbarossa starting at level 0. This is an aberration.

2/ The rythm of force generation by the russian is a bit too much. Basically, there are too many units in correct shape on the map. At no point in these games , did I have a manpower crisis (except maybe for the first 3 turns of the game). To put it bluntly, I never experienced the feeling I had not enough troops to face the German invasion.

3/ The consequence of the above is that the German player do not inspire fear. Something just does not feel right in a Russian front game where the German player is the underdog in 1941. I'm a fan of historicity but when the gaming pleasure is one-sided, something should be done.

What should be tweaked ? maybe a mix of those 3 suggestions :

+ slow down russian force generation (return of destroyed divisions delayed by 1 more week or so),

+ slow down the speed of fort building especially for levels above 1.

+ abandon the (in)famous 1 vs 1 russian bonus.
Kein Operationsplan reicht mit einiger Sicherheit
über das erste Zusammentreffen
mit der feindlichen Hauptmacht hinaus.
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RE: Before the blizzard

Post by *Lava* »

Well...

Now knowing that the Soviet player will not be able to rail routed units out of danger and to strategic locations to start building fortifications should change the game fairly dramatically, IMO.

In general it will allow the Axis player to move his entire force east right from turn 1, narrowing the distance between panzers and infantry. You will not only have the ability to bag static defenses, but also create pockets of fleeing Soviets in subsequent turns. This is a major change which will allow a more fluid battle than at present where the Axis guys are making pockets on turn 1 and then having to essentially hold 2 turns to get infantry up close enough to make another major thrust without having to totally exhaust your Panzer divisions or overextending them.

The change will allow the Axis to make much quicker progress, thus giving the Soviets less time to build forts.

This is especially true in the south, where the Axis player should be able to execute a general attack on the entire sector, thrust towards Kiev and bag a whole lot of prisoners much farther east than at present.

Thus, the change should, at least for the opening of the campaign, be more reflective of history, and give the Axis player an actual Southern option, which he really doesn't have at this point.

Can't wait to get my hands on the new patch!
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