Looking to the East

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Tue Dec 12, 2000 8:39 pm

Here's a question that has been buzzing in my head for a while...

I have no data to back this up, but... It seems that among all of the World War II theaters of wargaming, the Russian/German part of the conflict seems to get the most attention. Does this sound right? And, if so, why? What is it about the Eastern front that grabs our attention?

Lou

Paco · Post by **Paco** » Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:12 pm

You're right about the east front getting a lot of attention. The war on the east front was the bloodiest so far in history, and it was about 5 years of constant fighting.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:14 pm

Also if you like tanks warfare, that was where it is at.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:36 pm

When i think about the Eastern Front i am always drawn to the same question: How did any human being every endure let alone survive such a living hell? It is a search for the answer to this question that draws my interest to this subject.

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:44 pm

The following paragraphs were taken from the Designer’s Notes & Campaign Analysis of “Panzer Blitz” board game

“The German campaign against Russia between 1941 and 1945 was, to a significant extent, the only one that really mattered during WWII. Beginning June 1941, this campaign occupied the total effort of some the 71% of all German ground forces at that time. This included 88% of Germany’s 41 motorized divisions. By the end of 1942 the total number of German divisions available had risen from 209 to 262 and 77% of them were in the East. This included 79% of Germany’s armored divisions. By mid 1944, when the ‘second front’ in the west was opened, Germany still devoted over 60% of her ground forces to the eastern front. And throughout in the east the German’s sole opponent was the Soviet army”

“The western Allies supplied the Soviets with 14,000 aircraft and some 12,000 armored vehicles (10% of Russian production). Some 470,000 motor vehicles (which was equal to the total German production and considerably more than Russians themselves produced)”

Some others numbers:

During the first hours of Kursk campaign German army shouted a tremendous artillery barrage. “Official reports later stated that the Germans fired more shells in this barrage (in the southern side of the salient ) than the had throughout the entire Polish and French campaigns combined”. (Kursk 1943: The tide turns in the east” by Mark Healy; Osprey Military)

And from my personal opinion: Germans and Soviets had the best tanks (Tigers and Panthers vs JS and T-34 series) so when you fight with them you’re playing with the greatest tanks in the greatest war...

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No Pasarán!!

BA Evans · Post by **BA Evans** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:18 am

The Germans and the Russians had the neatest toys.

BA Evans

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:49 am

Apart from the previously mentioned factors contributing to our ongoing fascination with the War in the East, there is something else, at least in my view: the fact that this was a fight to the death between two totally foreign totalitarian systems, with all concerns for humanitarian issues tossed aside. "Collateral damage"...so what? More like Godzilla vs. King Kong. This was war fought with medieval intensity, albeit with modern weapons. Besides, given the relative evenness of the opponents during the "middle section" of the war (summer 1942-spring 1944), it makes for some great games. However, there IS just a little morbid fascination, apart from all the exotic weaponry. It almost has a science-fiction quality to it.

[This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited December 12, 2000).]

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 6:17 am

Originally posted by Panzer Captain:
When i think about the Eastern Front i am always drawn to the same question: How did any human being every endure let alone survive such a living hell? It is a search for the answer to this question that draws my interest to this subject.

PC, I have to agree with you. I think Samuel Hynes said it well in "Soldiers Tale)... I want to know how these ordinary people endured the unendurable. (my emphasis).

This resonates with me. How do people endure the unendurable??? The other big question is, could I be that strong? I may never know.

But, I do know this... Some nights when I'm feeling the pressure of graduate school or my insane job, and I can't get to sleep, I pull the covers up tight, get warm and think, "I'm not in the Hurtgen forest...I'm not in the Hurtgen forest".

Oddly enough, that's usually enough to get me to sleep.

Lou

MindSpy · Post by **MindSpy** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 6:51 am

Originally posted by Lou:
Here's a question that has been buzzing in my head for a while...

I have no data to back this up, but... It seems that the Russian/German seems to get the most attention. Does this sound right? And, if so, why? What is it about the Eastern front that grabs our attention?

Lou

That is interesting.
You know from a gaming perspective the Russian theater is more fun because the tanks are better armored and survive against more types of weapons than the early models!
The ground can be open or close and there are battles over several years with differing weapons although not necessarily improving weapons over several year's.
The Ardennes is just one vs the others and the terrain is difficult.

However there are so few
tanks in the tank battles for the Germans
that really it is just a gaming perspective afterall. The % of troops with armour in the
battles against the Soviets is preety small.
The Russians on the other hand don't have much of a system for training their forces and to supply so many mouths and vehicles
is a nightmare ( you can imagine they didn't get to eat as much from supply as from what they could scrounge locally ) so playing the Russians historically is ghastly. The loses and the uses of people do not encourage the
weak of stomcah control.
Through in the Ruthless (Hatred) opinion of
German Army and Party Leasders in what will be German soil and this is a Patriotic War against an aggressive and inhumane invader.
There is little room for the conquered.
Given more time ... I think I'll pass on the history and just play more silently with
the Panzers than when I didn't know as much
about the war behind the lines ...

From a gaming perspective though the
early war years can be very challenging.
Nazi Germany's opponent's are closer in abilities or ahead. While I'm not saying treachery (attacking first) will win the
Nazi's all their original invasions but ...
Stopping the French and Czeckos and Poles
and others from being cohesive and improving fighting forces does improve your chances of
continuing to win piecemeal. Fortunately,
all this advertising forces Russia to be next.
Britain is reprieved and quite possibly for
Canada (here) and other countries no
German occupation could now be accomplished.
With V-2's and Nukes now approaching and an
industry to apply them ... well you know!
Thank God it was not their destiny.
The same applies for the Extra Ruthless
Japanese. They were savage and if it weren't
for the difficulty of modeling ships there would probably be a large number of battles to draw on in the same vein as Russia.

I don't think the BeloRussian battles are overated or under appreciated. Just that with
a little creative license the Russians can
go almost one to one in units from the start.
So the interest is keen for players.
Growing up though, (Canada), it was mostly the Allied side and it's major battles that I was exposed to: The Soviets were not the focus!

MindSpy

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 6:56 am

As far as SPWAW goes and scenarios, I think you will find a pretty good balance of battles, without favoring any particular theater or time period.

I've never actually counted them in categories but I am sure that is the case.

The very scope of the war in Russi dwarfs any other theater in World War II.

Of the estimated 40,000,000 who died in WW2, nearly half of them were in this great war.

I really don't think anything has equalled it before or since.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Wed Dec 13, 2000 7:45 am

Originally posted by Wild Bill:

The very scope of the war in Russi dwarfs any other theater in World War II.

Of the estimated 40,000,000 who died in WW2, nearly half of them were in this great war.

I really don't think anything has equalled it before or since.

Wild Bill

And let's hope we never see its like again.

Lou