ORIGINAL: FatR
1)Is weapons' effectiveness against surface targets primarily governed by anti-soft/anti-armor ratings? Because I would hate to see Japanese destroyers being cut in two by Boforses and Pom-Poms.
a-soft, a-arm is only used when firing at land targets. You won’t.
(1.5)Speaking of that, statistics for 2pdr HA MK VIII in Scen 26 are really bad-ass. In stock it is quite good as well, but after DaBabes flak upgrade it is slightly better than Bofors. Considering that this gun was commonly considered inadequate in RL and meager achievements of shipboard British AAA in 1942, are you sure these stats are supposed to reflect a single barrel, rather than a mount of 8?)
Typo, the Eff should be 60, not 68. All specs are for a single barrel.
2)Can you provide us the list of the guns that have been modified? I would have preferred to add changes to the existing devices file, as to avoid overwriting any previous modifications.
Not really, the list is rather large. Changes, of one form or another, were done to all Type = 12 - AA Gun devices and Type = 17 - DP Gun devices.
3)Can you provide us the a list of Japanese AAA units armed with 8cm/88mm T99 AA gun, assuming it is historically accurate? When we were adding 88mm Type 99 to Scen 70, before patches added this gun to stock, I just assigned to some units in Home Islands arbitrarily.
Kereguelen did those and they are in the stock data update, too. I don’t know exactly which ones they are off the top of my head, but if you open witploadae and look for units with LCUFormationID = 2197, that should do the trick. There’s maybe 10 to 12 total.
[quote]ORIGINAL: JWE
a-soft, a-arm is only used when firing at land targets. You won’t.[quote]
I'm afraid I can't recommend the flak upgrade as-is, then. Effect 67 on Boforses will at least double surface firepower of late-war Allied DDs at ranges of 6k and less (where most of gunnery rounds happen in night combat). Low penetration won't matter, DP destroyer gun hardly ever penetrate any capital ship armor as well. In my experience, flak guns fire on enemy ships quite intensely when range allows...
Thanks for the answer, anyway.
John, I can add the files. As about flak, well, I find about 60 medium barrels in a base to be the minimum, necessary to start actually shooting down Allied bombers, as opposed to just throwing off their aim. Don't know what my opponents have in their major bases. This means that there can be only 1-2 bases per the entire Japanese Empire in 1942 where flak is a credible threat to the attackers, unless the player is willing to strip every other base bare.
On the other hand, I'm somewhat afraid that with significant strengthening of land-based flak, AAA fortresses that don't even really need CAP will become possible, particularly for Allies, if players still continue to mass flak batteries in their most important bases.
Okay, as promised, I've finished late-war changes to the mosquito fleet, as well as a bunch of other modifications. Here's the changelist so far. I'll post more comments a bit later.
Ship Classes:
1)Stats of USN subs are brought in line with DaBabes. (Checked Type 2 DC, range was already at 375).
2)Stats for Mikura-class and C/D-class esorts tweaked. The number of DC racks is decreased, small-calibre AAA armament is changed towards more historical.
3)Changed the upgrade tree for Otori-class TBs to a weapon loadout more optimized against air and surface targets, and made the key upgrade available from 42/1. Three ships of the class (those in the invasion TFs) will start the game already upgraded.
4)Added a 6/45 kaiten carrier upgrade for Matsu-class DDs (but not Tachibanas). Allegedly it was done IRL. It reduces their ASW and flak capabilities, though.
5)Made in-game ship classification a bit less confusing. Torpedo boats that retain their torpedo armament will stay torpedo boats. Only those stripped of it will be reclassified as escorts.
6)Slightly increased gun ammo loads to escorts, some auxilaries and so on.
7)Added late-war flak upgrades for certain high-value transports and auxilaries, including Tonan Whalers, Type-N TL oilers, Akitsu Maru and Tokiwa. As far as I know the two latter got them IRL.
8)Added historical late-war flak/ASW/radar upgrades for Type 1 APDs. Fuel consumption reduced (fuel point/mile rate was worse than for most DDs).
9)Type HA LSI/LST class is renamed to type 101 LSI/LST class. 127/40 DP gun replaced with 76/40 and initial small-calibre AAA armament is reduced, as IRL. Added a late-war flak/radar upgrade. Fuel consumption reduced (the same reason).
10)Added an upgrade to Tachibana class available from 45/11. The main difference is its quadruple Long Lance torpedo launcher being replaced with a sextuple one, which was developed in RL for Matsus/Tachibanas, but never reached production.
11)Ch-51 class renamed CHa-251, to avoid dublication for late-war Ch-13 series SCs (same reason as their IRL renaming by the way).
12)Range of large Ch-4 and Ch-13 classes SCs increased to more historical 2000.
13)K-class motorboats are enlarged and their range and armament improved (76/60 guns are removed from the patrol version, though). Hey, as far as I can tell they are fictitious ships for Enhanced Japan scenarios anyway. They remain considerably worse than USN PTs anyway, with weaker armament and no radar.
14)Added Wa-2 AMc class for 1945. Same as Wa-1, except classified as AMc* and armament slightly improved.
15)As agreed with John 3rd, replaced 4x2 76/60 wuth 2x2 100/65 on Agano cruisers, to remove 76/60 from production entirely.
Ships, Japanese
1)Removed 33 Ukuru-class escorts from the queue.
2)Added 41 C/D-class escorts to the queue, and rearranged the production queue. Production of C/D class escorts will reach the peak in the autumn of 1944, gradually decrease in the next five months, and drop radically from May of 1945 onwards, with the last ship arriving in September of 1945 (only about 6 ships from the stock queue arrive after this date anyway). I doubt that long-range escorts will be a priority need at this point...
3)Removed 10 end-war Yugumo and Akizuki DDs from the queue. Added 3 Matsu-class DDs for late 1944-early 1945. Added 12 Tachibana-class DDs for late 1945-1946. Rearranged arrival dates of end-war DDs a bit.
4)Added 12 more Type 1 APDs to the queue. 1-2 per month are delivered until April of 1946.
5)Added two historical (T-160 and T-161) and 27 extra Type 101 LSIs to the queue. Production lasts until August of 1945.
6)Returned Kuma and Tama to their stock state. Kiso, Kitakami and Oi remain as training cruisers.
7)Set arrival locations for all motor boats to "0", so that they will not be stuck in the production, but will go to the pool.
8)Removed extra small DDs of the previous builds that were historically lost in accidents, broken up before 1939 or cancelled.
9)Added two more Otori-class TBs at the beginning of the war.
10)Three historical CHa-251 SCs are added to the map at the start. This means that they will no longer displace three Ch-13 SCs in the queue.
11)Over 100 T1 motorboats and about 30 T51 motorboats are added to the queue for 1944-46. T51s are produced slowly and phased out in spring of 1945. T1s are produces at their normal early-1945 rate until the end of the scenario. Aprroximately 150 K motorboats are added to the queue from March of 1945 to the end of the scenario. They are IJN's final defensive weapons, instead of hordes of midgets in this scenario. It should be noted that almost all of these boats are set to arrive without fuel.
12)Added 9 Wa-2 class AMcs for 1945.
Ships, Allied
1)For whatever reason, most Allied carriers in Scen 70 were arriving considerably earlier than in the current version of stock (since the build I'm still playing), and some a bit later. Their dates of arrival are synchronised with Scen 1.
Production
1)Changed A6M5b factory in Maebashi to A6M8-S and increased its size to 20, to reduce dissimilarity with the stock (originally A6M5b-S factory of size 20).
Aircraft
1)Fixed the max load issue for B7M3 and D4Y5.
Devices
1)Ship-based light AA guns tinkered with, generally to move them towards DaBabes flak mod direction**. Slightly less accuracy, more effect. Some of the older guns, like Japanese 13.2 MG, British and Japanese versions of 40mm Vickers are nerfed (Accuracy of all of these was way too good). Bofors and Oerlikon shipboard AA guns have their effect value considerably buffed (to 30 and 20 respectively). Only Japanese guns that have received unquestionable boost are 100/65 and 76/60. Will test how the modified Allied flak works before passing the build back to John.
*Wa-1 AM class is not actually used in the game, purpose-built Wa-ships are classified as To'su Wa-1 AMc.
**As a side note, AA ratings of ships seem to be calculated entirely or largely based on Effect. If Accuracy is taken into account at all, it has much lesser bearing on the final number. This seems to be one of the reasons why Japanese AA rating of, say, 1000 is not at all equal in real effectiveness to Allied AA rating of 1000.
1)Historically Japanese build or almost completed several large minelayers in the end of the world - two repurposed from StD merchants and two smaller DMS-like ships. They are not in the game, and I couldn't add them, because there is no art for them. I'm also not sure if they are really needed, or needed in this shape. K-class motorboats mentioned in the changes above can be converted to lay Type 93 mines. Alternatively, I can add some minelayers bases on type D escort ship hull (changes shouldn't be that big, I imagine), which won't require new art.
2)Three Akitsu Maru LSDs that had flight decks are in the game, but four more Japanese LSDs (three completed, one not completed before the end of the war) aren't. I can add them, if someone generously volunteers to draw art for them. They looked like this:
3)I think bklooste might be right that the current form of Aganos aren't very economical. With 12 152x3 turrets lying around after their removal from Mogamis, isn't it better to try using 3x3 armament on them, than 4x2? I don't know, though, how this will impact the weight. Not insisting, just an idea.
Thank you for the detailed change list. It really helps to have a clear idea regarding work done. Good.
As alluded to in earlier Posts, the two of us have had a running set of emails going back-and-forth to make sure we are on the same page. I really like the reworking of mid-to-late war production. Everything was/is predicated on Yamamoto streamlining ship production and attempting to maximize personnel within the Fleet.
Comments:
1. Do we have someone who might be interested in adding the ship art for the ML mentioned above? Think that they might as well be put into the que.
2. Same comment goes for the Akitsu Marus.
3. Regarding the Agano's (since there has been so much discussion here) I think the most practical, economical move would be a 3x3 arrangement using the turrets from the Mogami conversions. If memory serves some of those guns were used as secondaries on the Yamatos and since we're only building Yamato/Musashi there should be enough to equip the CLs.
This change would mean that we need a triple turreted Agano for ship art.
Looks like we're in need of someone who has something similar to the above three types of ships and we need some fresh work. Are there any volunteers?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I really LIKE what Da Babes has done with creating their own site for people to go to. Have sought to bribe my wife to find us a place to base RA where people can visit, comment, and download the finished files. SHE is the technical one in THIS family!
Any suggestions as to where we can do this economically?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Got ship files, all right. Let's wait a bit for comments and answers... I'll work on the subs for now. As about art for Aganos, we can probably reuse old stock shipsides, if there will be no other choice.
Here is what I've knocked up for the Settsu Maru class LSD's and the Mino Maru minelayers. I can't recall having seen a photograph of either, but the LSD rescaled nicely from FatR's drawing. The drawing in Jentschura of Mino Maru seems consistent with the sketch in Fukui, so I've adapted the stock art Standard 'D' to create the minelayer based on these two sources. I was quite surprised by the extent of the adaptation required.
The image is, in fact, a bitmap to which I have simply added a .jpg suffix.
Attachments
SettsuMin..arus.bmp.jpg (152.4 KiB) Viewed 640 times
For modding purposes, it's a very useful addition to combinedfleet.com's database, as it lists upgrades by dates for many ships. No ship histories, save for dates and causes of loss, though.
I've added new LSDs and Eijo Maru CMs to the queue, looks like they work fine. Thanks again, LY. Also added three small minelayers resulted from development of Sokuten class that were built or building IRL. Rolled them into a single class.
It is very possible, of course, that players wouldn't want to build expensive ships like LSDs or large CMs so late in the war. But extra options won't hurt. Back to working on subs for now...
Anyway, I haven't had much time to work on subs, but what I've done so far is tinkering with the upgrades:
- Old kaidai subs (pre-KD6) stay as they are in stock. They are (realistically, although not according to their in-game stats) the least useful subs of IJN, so they get the lowest uprgade priority. I.e., no upgrades until refitting as kaiten platforms in 1945.
- Later kaidai subs and RO-subs will receive radar upgrades through early 1944.
- Big subs will receive radar and, when appropriate, flak upgrades through second half of 1943.
I'm really torn on what class of medium subs to choose as standard. K6 is a realistical option. KD7 is one that is more likely to be actually built in the game (because the number of torpedo tubes is so important).
Upon reading more on Japanese sub program, my opinion about it had improved somewhat. Apparently A/B/C boats used very similar hulls and the same machinery already. Good for Japan, as with the divergence point in second half of 1942 significant divergences from reality are simply impossible - most boats completed during the war were laid down before that date. I think that just eliminating the sole A2 class boat, I-12, as well as one of the inferior C3 class boats from the program, and replacing the remaining C3 class boats, as well as the entire B3 class with C2 boats.
An important consideration for submarines is the strategic roll . Historically it was to support the battle fleet and pick of enemy capital ships before hand but with a stronger belief in Air vs capital ships this would change. Likely changes
- Less A and B subs and more medium subs which are more capable.
- Probably an upgrade of sub bases where action is likely Marshalls , Bonin , Taiwan , Saigon to support medium subs.
- radar on most subs as you have done including medium flotilla leaders.
- subs instead of working with Kitoris work with some sort of fast AV, and less plane equipped
- A decrease in overall numbers and resources moved to LBA and plane equipped surface ships . eg a decrease in Cruiser subs (ABC) , more LBA and an increase in medium subs , a few CVS or AV to replace the Katori. Maybe an AS roll for the AV/CVS.
If improvements are made you could standardize medium subs on a slightly improved KD7 . I believe the KD7 had an improved double hull , i doubt they would ramp up K6 production.
Rather than build the Ds you can convert some old subs to cargo , I believe there were more of the class that start of with 4 mine layers but the rest were scrapped pre war.
For the larger boats there was an interesting B4 variant planned but not built you could upgrade B3 / C3 with these B4s. With a higher believe in air power it is is likely that a more survivable cruiser sub like the B4 was built. The B4 would have been larger by about 200 tons, had a surface speed of 22.5 knots, and carried eight torpedo tubes forward (with 23 torpedoes). This class was planned to number 8 boats, Historically they were all canceled in 1943 but as i said with a desire for more survivability vs air the higher surface speed would allow them to get in position better though IMHO the submarine Cruiser concept does not fit with an air focused Japan.
I have been surprised by no commentary as well. Thanks for the update FatR and thoughts by BK.
Hadn't thought along the cruiser submarine line as you just wrote about. Reactions:
1. The B4 is a GOOD boat: excellent speed, tubes, and strength, however, the Cs make sense too. The Japanese SS effort is something I haven't read much on so I will leave it others who know better. What do people think about that?
2. Like the radar and AA upgrades as written. Fits with what we've chartered for vision in the Mod.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
The real question is the roll of the fleet eg the B3 are better than the B2s at interdicting enemy merchant shipping due to range vs speed trade off.
I doubt you can convince many of the Japanese submarine fleet being focused against merchants.
If the focus is on medium subs to finish carrier strikes than their is a good case for bringing forward the I200 and bumping the numbers. This will free resources and Japan already has a pretty large fleet of Cruiser subs to fulfill their needs. eg When air focus happens in 1940 no more Cruiser subs laid down.
Good thoughts. Yamamoto never talked (in my reading) about conducting a merchant war. Think the focus needs to be streamlining, specializing, and personnel consideration. The medium SS seems to be the right way to run.
Which one though? Appears to be several choices: C2/C3 or B4.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Good thoughts. Yamamoto never talked (in my reading) about conducting a merchant war. Think the focus needs to be streamlining, specializing, and personnel consideration. The medium SS seems to be the right way to run.
Which one though? Appears to be several choices: C2/C3 or B4.
Which one though? Appears to be several choices: C2/C3 or B4.
I would say neither just a mod KD7...but what is the strategy ? You already have a stack of Sub Cruiser ready in 41 , do you support carrier fleets by finishing torpedoed ships ? This requires some replacement for the Katoris with scout air planes , LBA and medium subs. Will you fight near your base with subs or aggressively ? etc.
Strategy is too late to change, and as I mentioned before, Japanese have no other realistic strategy to pursue anyway, before Allied ASW will inevitably crush them. Neither in game, nor in RL. Doing meaningful damage to the Allied merchant fleet with their numbers is just not possible, unless the Allied player manages his convoys worse than AI. So operations against the enemy battlefleet (and, later, invasion forces) are the only option.
In the game, this usually means that Jap subs mostly stay in ports and flood the area before or right after big battles from 1943 onwards.
What you need for it, well, here RL and the game diverge. IRL you needed high submerged speed and low noise. In the game, I'm not sure if maneuver speed seriously impacts survivability (although I'm going to test it), so you primarily need more torpedo tubes in front to make your shot count and durability to maybe survive the retaliation. Also, decent cruise speed to reach patrol areas in time, but this Japanese subs already have. Unfortunately, durability is directly tied to (already heavy) building cost, so cannot increase it.
B4 boats, I feel, will be unjustified. By late 1942 it should be clear that operating floatplanes in the areas of enemy fleet activity is impossible. Therefore C2 is a more economical way to get the same eight torpedo tubes, which is what we want. In addition, C2 had better surfaced and submerged speeds. So, if we must build some big subs (as there is also no resources or time to shift production to something radically new one extra time).
But after some thinking, I agree that further improvement of KD series will be an optimum choice, even from RL standpoint. While K6 is far more economical to build (IRL), there is also the matter of crew shortages, which will make building lots of cheap subs rather futile. So, I think, here we can follow the game's logic with RL justification.
