Japanese Navy... whats the point..

[topeverest]

Prester

Perhaps the better way to look at your issue is asset development prioritization over the course of the entire game.  IMHO, placing a date on when and what to do with a cutback is not appropriate.  I believe it is situational.  When the allies begin to close in, you have already determined (in your case) your naval build strategy...and then you Change.

Make sense?

[offenseman]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Prester

Perhaps the better way to look at your issue is asset development prioritization over the course of the entire game.  IMHO, placing a date on when and what to do with a cutback is not appropriate.  I believe it is situational.  When the allies begin to close in, you have already determined (in your case) your naval build strategy...and then you Change.

Make sense?

That is very true. These games are so varied between them that there is no one way to play. That same situation makes every game so different that the same player might have very different strategies, goals, and production plans in every game. For me, that is one of the best aspects of it- the ability to replay again and again and never run into the same game.

[CV 2]

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I doubt there are ways to find an additional 500 pilots a month who are experienced enough to go toe to toe with the Allies reinforcements after say, 1/43.  Different methods of unit expansion and training efforts can mitigate that to some extent but not that much.  Some of those methods of unit expansion are gamey and in my PBEMs would not be allowed for that reason.  

Trust me, there is.

[PresterJohn001]

Its a late game strategy based on the assumption that anything launched after mid '44 is going to have a poor cost/benefit ratio compared with aircraft. I'm kind of assuming i will have plenty of use for 1 shot aircraft at that point in the war and 100 kamikazes are going to be better than 1 Cargo ship or 1 Sub etc.

I have a single game going, no prior experience and have amassed a reasonable, but not Chickenboy standard reserve of HI. As i intend to fight all the way efficiency of HI is going to be important. In Mid '43 i very much have a fleet in being and don't plan on losing it

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

With minimal fanfare and sacrifice, I've managed to bank 1.27 million HI in my ongoing PBEM game (Just about to enter January 1943). I've certainly not starved myself of planes or production.

Would 1/6 of my reserve HI be worth it to produce another decent CV? Yeah, probably. I'd rather do that than produce thousands of 1942 era Japanese fighters.

Back to the drawing board. [X(] I am REALLY doing something wrong. [&:]Not even close to this after only one year.

I have a l o n g way to go yet in my skills ... amazing to have over a million HI ... [&o][&o][&o]

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

With minimal fanfare and sacrifice, I've managed to bank 1.27 million HI in my ongoing PBEM game (Just about to enter January 1943). I've certainly not starved myself of planes or production.

Would 1/6 of my reserve HI be worth it to produce another decent CV? Yeah, probably. I'd rather do that than produce thousands of 1942 era Japanese fighters.

Back to the drawing board. [X(] I am REALLY doing something wrong. [&:]Not even close to this after only one year.

I have a l o n g way to go yet in my skills ... amazing to have over a million HI ... [&o][&o][&o]

Same here. When I first glimpse this thread I even read has 12,7 million HI, and I was like "oh man, I must really suck..." Now I feel a little bit better... But only a little bit. It's February 1943 and I have 0,35 million HI. I think it's time to increase some HI centers...

[CV 2]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

With minimal fanfare and sacrifice, I've managed to bank 1.27 million HI in my ongoing PBEM game (Just about to enter January 1943). I've certainly not starved myself of planes or production.

Would 1/6 of my reserve HI be worth it to produce another decent CV? Yeah, probably. I'd rather do that than produce thousands of 1942 era Japanese fighters.

Back to the drawing board. [X(] I am REALLY doing something wrong. [&:]Not even close to this after only one year.

I have a l o n g way to go yet in my skills ... amazing to have over a million HI ... [&o][&o][&o]

Same here. When I first glimpse this thread I even read has 12,7 million HI, and I was like "oh man, I must really suck..." Now I feel a little bit better... But only a little bit. It's February 1943 and I have 0,35 million HI. I think it's time to increase some HI centers...

Depends on your personal game philosophy. And Im not saying that either is right or wrong. From my point of view, the Japanese only have 2 ways to "win the game". One is autovictory which is only likely to happen in Jan 1943 and requires full expenditure in 1942. The other is to prevent the allies from amassing enough points to "win" in 1945 and this is done by NOT producing things that will give the allies points.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: CV 2


... The other is to prevent the allies from amassing enough points to "win" in 1945 and this is done by NOT producing things that will give the allies points.

Guess I have not fully explored that strategy yet ... doesn't seem like much "fun" to me though. I like toys! [:D]

PS: Even sucky toys are better than no toys for me. [;)]

[topeverest]

Prester,

I would be interested in your thoughts after the end of said game. Since you cannot achieve auto victory (unless I am mistaken), can you restate the purpose of such a large reserve? How are you going to extend the game long enough to win? BY fleet in being, do you mean that your fleet has been decimated? You should be able to giver the allies hell still.

[obvert]

With minimal fanfare and sacrifice, I've managed to bank 1.27 million HI in my ongoing PBEM game (Just about to enter January 1943). I've certainly not starved myself of planes or production.

As a beginning player who would like to play the IJ side effectively, what are some loose guidelines for making this happen? Increase certain HI centers? Hold back certain production?

I'm happy to figure most of it out, but it would certainly help to have a basic understanding of what is most important so I don't get to '44 after a year and realize I can't compete because my economy is gone.

[topeverest]

Obvert,

dont look for consensus on such issues. There are many right paths to take, depending on your strategy and tactics. To simplify, I believe there are only two overachring valid stategic approaches to this game as empire.

IF - you are going for auto victory in 43, I doubt you will hold much of a reserve in anything (military or industrial), and you will allocate production according to your tactical objectives
IF - you are after a time based victory, IMHO, production decisions become much more complex as to determine what is appropriate. It will depend on how you believe you will achieve the victory. (FYI, I - for one - believe this approach is only valid after the prior is taken away as an option)

I am in the camp that if you are playing in the time based victory category, additional major empire naval assets will be extremely important for the classic defensive naval amphibious pulses that rule this game. Get one big one rightly done, and you have a chance to win on time. Get two, and IME, you usually win. Giving up on your future major naval assets is the beginning of the end of the empire. IMHO, it is just about impossible to turn back a mid or late war allied invasion without BB's, CA's and CV's. It is impossible to predict the future of combat in a game, but if you dont have assets to fight, the game is in the hands of the allies.

Anyway, so goes the theory.

[Methuen]

I'm busy playing an RA scenario as Japan, I decided to try something new - I set every available bomber stationed near Manila to hit the docks on turn 1 and 2, also sent 'Mini KB' to Soerabaja and bombed the snot out of the docks there too. My aim is to destroy the Allies sub fleet (or as much of it as possible) and give my merchants a chance. Over a total of 4 days I've sunk 22 subs! I'm sure there are a few more crippled/damaged stuck in port, but Mini KB has had to return for resupply and Clark AF now requires the urgent attention of my bombers. I’m really hoping to reduce the sub menace in the South/East China Sea

[PresterJohn001]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Prester,

I would be interested in your thoughts after the end of said game. Since you cannot achieve auto victory (unless I am mistaken), can you restate the purpose of such a large reserve? How are you going to extend the game long enough to win? BY fleet in being, do you mean that your fleet has been decimated? You should be able to giver the allies hell still.

Well its going to be at least a year real time.....

My fleet is doing quite well, some losses, nothing major and i have sunk a few allied carriers and given other surface assets a mauling. Ships just look expensive for the damage they can do compared with air. I'm also not too bothered with victory points as such. Rather i comparre against the historical timeline. I'm not convinced that VP's give a good indictaion of who's "winning".

The planes would also mostly be used as kamikazes, not really enough time to train the pilots for all of them to useful levels otherwise...

[FatR]

Once, before playing to late 1942, I thought that pilot replacement won't be a problem. But it is. The front easily eats 150 pilots a month on relatively quiet months by late autumn. Without going totally gamey with resizing (i.e., many size 81 IJN groups) and/or devoting dozens of unrestricted/unrestrictable airgroups to training, it is hard to even maintain the quality. At the moment my pilot pools still grow, but I have a bad feeling that this will not last long.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Having served up a reverse Midway, I think that would perhaps be unwise...

It kinda depends on what happens in the future, but from my point of view, it seems to me that you only get so many rolls of the dice as Allies. Not even the Allies have unlimited numbers of CVs. And having made one stinkingly bad roll, one or two more of those would be the end of the war probably.

So I would hardly label the IJN as useless in the late war!

Yes, this is the point. You should let your position dictate your policy rather than set policy first. Players of scen #2 would of course need to build more ships as usually they have a larger perimeter to defend that tends to hold up longer and will need merchant shipping. Likewise if you win the big carrier battle in 1942 then your needs will differ.

Funny, as an Allied player, I see many players turn off one or both of the super BBs in favor of more carrier assets. But the game is so skewed towards surface combat that I would think these ships are a must. They are so difficult to sink and there are so many more decisive surface action in AE than ever could have happened in the real deal. Likewise, if you as the Japanese "lose" the big carrier battle then I question if building more carriers will help. After 44 if half of KB is missing then any new Japanese carriers might start to become redundant.

As long as Japan is moving supply via ship, I can't imagine ever having enough escorts.

[offenseman]

ORIGINAL: crsutton


As long as Japan is moving supply via ship, I can't imagine ever having enough escorts.

Neither can I. There are never enough to make me feel comfortable.

[PaxMondo]

I suspect it is done with very small, conservative a/c build changes. 
 
a/c factory changes use up a lot of HI and supply.  This is actually a good strategy if PDU is OFF.  Most of the factories you need to keep on to be able to replace losses.  If PDU is on, well to take advantage of that you are going to want to change a LOT of factory production to optimize your mix.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: brotherbaldrick

I'm busy playing an RA scenario as Japan, I decided to try something new - I set every available bomber stationed near Manila to hit the docks on turn 1 and 2, also sent 'Mini KB' to Soerabaja and bombed the snot out of the docks there too. My aim is to destroy the Allies sub fleet (or as much of it as possible) and give my merchants a chance. Over a total of 4 days I've sunk 22 subs! I'm sure there are a few more crippled/damaged stuck in port, but Mini KB has had to return for resupply and Clark AF now requires the urgent attention of my bombers. I’m really hoping to reduce the sub menace in the South/East China Sea

Welcome to RA!

In my RA Campaign versus Lew, my HI stockpile is at only 250,000 but I consider that pretty good considering I have been building all my RA Ships and have seriously expanded my air industry.

For the upcoming 3.0 of RA FatR and I have made major changes. We both reached the same conclusion to end 1st Class DD construction in early-1944 and have the Japanese build strictly 2nd Class DD from there. Cheaper, still some multi-dimensional ability, but--more importantly--ASW assets. The major FLEET units are finished sometime in late-43/early-44.

[findmeifyoucan]

Actually I don't see any point in building any ships at all late in the war. Just all aircraft. Just an interesting off topic note, I had an ACM end up with 101 pnts of engine damage. I did not think it would be possible to get more than 100% damage on something? lol I guess if you have ongoing fires as well it can put you over the 100 limit? No sinkage as it was only engine damage!!

[FatR]

Simple cost comparison of ships to aicraft is deceptive. First, for aircraft you need pilots. As attacks against the Allied fleet in 1945, result in 20-30% losses from flak alone, pilots inevitably will be a bottleneck. Of course, you can use kamikazes, which hit even with miserable skills, but kamikaze have their own limitations, like apparently reduced damage compared to just bombing the target. Second, your air effort is also limited by airbases and support, unless we talk about the battle for Home Islands, and possibly even then. Third, even an inferior surface force can disrupt a landing, or cause an amphibious TF to delay/retreat, if it gets lucky, possibly buying you crucial time. I see no reason to turn off most of naval production until Home Islands are cut off from DEI.