Captured manpower

[squatter]

Can I just clarify something - the Axis player does benefit from the captured manpower of the Soviet population centres he captures, right?

[jomni]

Of course not.  Hitler does not want to conscript every Russian into his army.
The benefit in capturing manpower centers is to deprive the enemy of the manpower.

[squatter]

That might have been what the propaganda poster said, in reality hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens served in the German Army - I believe as many as 800,000 at one point. Most of these would have, in game terms, been in support squads, security squads, labour squads, etc.
 
But given the difficulty any of the late game AAR players are showing in keeping German manpower levels high enough (including testers), this is a pretty huge ommission. 
 
Combined with the calculations ComP came up with relating to the impact of captured Soviet resources on German production (ie none), can the player in fact affect the size and strength of the Axis army in any way over the course of the five year campaign, other than through what happens on the battlefield?
 
The Byzantine formulas and a hieroglyphic flow chart contained in the manual on this matter are impossible to decipher, but it would be interesting to know what the practical effect of holding oil producing centres in the Caucuses is for the Axis (hopefully not the same impact as holding resource centres: ie none)  

[Muzrub]

I would like to see the adoption of Russian manpower into the German military either as replacements or as individual units- its not totally ahistorical. (would be a great mod)

[squatter]

So what's the deal with this? Why come the Germans dont get the benefit of a limited amount of Soviet manpower? Seems strange when Polish, Czech, Slovak manpower are modelled.
 
 

[keystone70]

I don't think this can applied uniformally since not all commanders utilized the local population.  And in some areas the population was not sympathetic to the Germans or outright hostile due to SS reprisals after Partisan attacks.  That being said Army Group South's(and later Groups A & B) could not have moved without the help of the Ukrainian population.  Some divisions entire support apparatus were comprised of Russians.  The Ukraine and Baltic hated the Russians more than the Germans and had the SS not gone through and 'cleansed' more would have rallied to the German cause.

[Great_Ajax]

I think it is because these countries have a small Volksdeutsch population that is subject to conscription in the Wehrmacht.

Trey

ORIGINAL: squatter

So what's the deal with this? Why come the Germans dont get the benefit of a limited amount of Soviet manpower? Seems strange when Polish, Czech, Slovak manpower are modelled.

[Aditia]

Well looking at the manpower issues (which is of course historical, not sure if to this extent) reported in the later stages of the war; there is in my opinion both a historical and a gameplay reason to include captured manpower use. Factors to determine if at all, and to what extent could be distance to the front and garissoning of cities.

A special case should be the Baltics, not sure if the game already models manpower usage from the baltics, but as far as I can see, all the game does is introduce the SS units that were raised in the Baltics, where support for the Germans was quite high, and I think Estonians especially deployed a large number of men on the side of the wehrmacht in 1944. If the game does not model manpower usage from the Baltics through the German pool this means these units would recieve zero non-german reinforcements, which is at least weird.

I am by no means a detailed expert on this subject, but it seems to me some manpower use from occupied countries in the east is at least warranted for historical and gameplay reasons. To what extent and at what stage in the war is hard for me to say and I will leave that to the experts.

In the 43-45 game I am PBEM'ing as the Axis I can already see a huge manpower issue coming after 4 turns of play. The front has been quiet thus far, but I am already having issues, and TOE adjustments seem to take quite a while to take effect (if at all).

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I am by no means a detailed expert on this subject, but it seems to me some manpower use from occupied countries in the east is at least warranted for historical and gameplay reasons. To what extent and at what stage in the war is hard for me to say and I will leave that to the experts.

+1

[Mynok]

Didn't most of the OST units serve on the western front? I know there's a bunch in my AH The Longest Day game.

[Great_Ajax]

I have suggested in the past to the team to use captured manpower to feed German support squads as Hiwis. This would free up more German manpower for the fighting elements. Too much to do and limited time ...

Trey

[Zorch]

+1 Hiwis

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I have suggested in the past to the team to use captured manpower to feed German support squads as Hiwis. This would free up more German manpower for the fighting elements. Too much to do and limited time ...

Trey

Would be a real stab in the dark guessing at numbers Trey? Other than a few individual army and divisional reports from 1942 onwards and a lot of anecdotal evidence, there's no real hard count to be found for numbers of 'former soviet citizens' on the Heer's strength reports. On the other hand, German industry (for which figures are available) benefits from the output of the labour of Soviet citizens whether or not the war plays out historically. Swings and roundabouts sometimes.

[Steelers708]

Considering the rigidity of the German TOE's in the game it would be quite easy to include Hiwi's in the game.

Hitler first authorised the use/recruitment of Hiwi's in September 1941, they could be recruited upto 15% of the divisional strength. By 1943 it was estimated that there were 250,000 Hiwi's.

With the advent of the changes to TOE's the M1944 Infantry division was to have 12,772 men, of which 11,317 were German and 1455 were Hiwi's.

The M1945 Infantry division was to have 11,899 men of which 11,211 were German and 698 were Hiwi's.

The M1944 Pz Division was to have 14,727 men, of which 14,013 were German and 714 were Hiwi's.

[Great_Ajax]

The 6th Army in mid November 1942 shows over 50k Hiwis as an example.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I have suggested in the past to the team to use captured manpower to feed German support squads as Hiwis. This would free up more German manpower for the fighting elements. Too much to do and limited time ...

Trey

Would be a real stab in the dark guessing at numbers Trey? Other than a few individual army and divisional reports from 1942 onwards and a lot of anecdotal evidence, there's no real hard count to be found for numbers of 'former soviet citizens' on the Heer's strength reports. On the other hand, German industry (for which figures are available) benefits from the output of the labour of Soviet citizens whether or not the war plays out historically. Swings and roundabouts sometimes.

[Great_Ajax]

Honestly, if it was easy, it would have been done already. Thats the constant appraisal by the developers on features. Is the time investment worth the feature? Once we get the parameters of the game set and looking right - 41 blizzard, manpower, production, etc. I hope we can relook at some of these.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

Considering the rigidity of the German TOE's in the game it would be quite easy to include Hiwi's in the game.

Hitler first authorised the use/recruitment of Hiwi's in September 1941, they could be recruited upto 15% of the divisional strength. By 1943 it was estimated that there were 250,000 Hiwi's.

With the advent of the changes to TOE's the M1944 Infantry division was to have 12,772 men, of which 11,317 were German and 1455 were Hiwi's.

The M1945 Infantry division was to have 11,899 men of which 11,211 were German and 698 were Hiwi's.

The M1944 Pz Division was to have 14,727 men, of which 14,013 were German and 714 were Hiwi's.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Honestly, if it was easy, it would have been done already. Thats the constant appraisal by the developers on features. Is the time investment worth the feature? Once we get the parameters of the game set and looking right - 41 blizzard, manpower, production, etc. I hope we can relook at some of these.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

Considering the rigidity of the German TOE's in the game it would be quite easy to include Hiwi's in the game.

Hitler first authorised the use/recruitment of Hiwi's in September 1941, they could be recruited upto 15% of the divisional strength. By 1943 it was estimated that there were 250,000 Hiwi's.

With the advent of the changes to TOE's the M1944 Infantry division was to have 12,772 men, of which 11,317 were German and 1455 were Hiwi's.

The M1945 Infantry division was to have 11,899 men of which 11,211 were German and 698 were Hiwi's.

The M1944 Pz Division was to have 14,727 men, of which 14,013 were German and 714 were Hiwi's.

Sorry Trey I didn't mean to imply that it would be easy in terms of the actual game mechanics/algorithms, I was referring to the fact that we know how many men to account for/add to the relevant German TOE's.

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The 6th Army in mid November 1942 shows over 50k Hiwis as an example.

Trey

Sure, and we can cite the divisional numbers which contribute to that figure as well as the guesstimation of the army and corps troops which are added on to get to the 50k figure. But was late 1942 an exceptional time in this regard? Was Sixth Army exceptional in this regard? There just isn't the hard numbers to come to any conclusion.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The 6th Army in mid November 1942 shows over 50k Hiwis as an example.

Trey

Sure, and we can cite the divisional numbers which contribute to that figure as well as the guesstimation of the army and corps troops which are added on to get to the 50k figure. But was late 1942 an exceptional time in this regard? Was Sixth Army exceptional in this regard? There just isn't the hard numbers to come to any conclusion.

Well actually we can show the divisional numbers.


Unit Hiwi's



376th ID 4,105
44th ID 2,365
4th ID 1,804
76th ID 8,033
113th ID 5,564
94th ID 2,581
16th PzD 1,843
60th MotD 2,071
3rd MotD 4,530
71st ID 8,134
295th ID 50
100th JgrD 2,132
79th ID 2,018
305th ID 1,562
389th ID 2,379
14th PzD 934
24th PzD 1,675

I was going to give the Ration Strength, combat strength and non-combat strengths for each division also, but the nice neat table I did just looked a jumble of figures when I previewed it, so I decided not to bother.

[Zebedee]

Steelers - erm, yes? Although your figures look suspiciously similar to Overmans' and are incorrect in detail as a result. Perhaps to illustrate my point better it might be fun to find, as an example, similar figures for Sixth Army in May 1942 and perhaps compare them across to the figures for any random Army in May 1941 and also May 1943? Even a percentage of non-German composition of such divisions would be useful... One cannot assume that Sixth Army in October/November 1942 was in any way representative of the Heer as a whole at that time, let alone being representative for four years.