Three Questions

[Lion9]

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Lion9,

Welcome aboard. You'll find a very freindly community of users here for Vic's excellent game and plenty of potential opponents if you ever feel like flexing your PBEM muscles.

Thanks for that GrumpyMel. PBEM is certainly something I will do -- later, once I have learned the intracies of Vic's new game. Since I have not had the pleasure of playing the first AT, it will take some while to attain sufficient ATG-knowledge so that I might prove a worthy opponent. Reading through the various AAR's I can easily notice that very many are not only enthused about this game, but are also doggone good at it. Yourself included.

I would definately reccomend browsing through the AT scenerio bank, if you have the interest. One of the amazing things about the AT series is the flexibilty of the engine and the editor. I think you'll find a wide variety of scenerio's available covering many periods and scales. As I understand it, the scenerio's designed for classic AT should be playable under ATG.

I have already looked through the scenario bank and am satisfied that I will be able to find something suitable. I guess the older scenarios will have to be updated to include Vic's newest features, such as the "ore and oil" requirements. That alone changes things quite a bit I would guess, since you can no longer just stamp out the steel so to speak, but instead must build a more balanced OOB. As it should be.

Apparently, there are very many -- though, a few who do seem to excell at the creation of mods -- strategic choices available. The "grand strategy" is my first choice, but am not loathe to play a good tactical game either.

Here I will once again request that tweber let me know what is the scale and AI-ability of his Europe 39 scenario when he might have a spare moment.

I intend to buy the game anyhow, but like the eternal kid in the war-gaming store (... so many great stores of yore have gone under, and it's a shame really, but the new world waits for no man I guess) I am pleasantly anxious to know IF I will have that scenario akin to "Clash of Steel" or not? [:)]

Pretty much the only scale AT doesn't handle well (ironicaly enough) is tactical...as there is no facility LOS and a few other things that really only come into play on the tactical level. But you should have no problems finding a plethora of strategic and operational scenerio's.

RE: My question to tweber, I am interested to know if his Europe 39 that Vic has mentioned as being included with ATG, also has an AI?

And, if not, can I take that scenario and study up on the very helpful instructions that are pinned elsewhere, and TRY to insert a workable AI myself? Having been around the hex-gaming block for more years than I care to mention, I am fair satisified that well over HALF of the computer gamers do enjoy playing solo. I am one of those. Heck, I enjoy all kinds of well-crafted games, pixel or cardboard... yeah, true, I do miss the sound and the fury of rolling out those fickle dice! [;)]

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: Lion9

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Lion9,

Welcome aboard. You'll find a very freindly community of users here for Vic's excellent game and plenty of potential opponents if you ever feel like flexing your PBEM muscles.

Thanks for that GrumpyMel. PBEM is certainly something I will do -- later, once I have learned the intracies of Vic's new game. Since I have not had the pleasure of playing the first AT, it will take some while to attain sufficient ATG-knowledge so that I might prove a worthy opponent. Reading through the various AAR's I can easily notice that very many are not only enthused about this game, but are also doggone good at it. Yourself included.

I would definately reccomend browsing through the AT scenerio bank, if you have the interest. One of the amazing things about the AT series is the flexibilty of the engine and the editor. I think you'll find a wide variety of scenerio's available covering many periods and scales. As I understand it, the scenerio's designed for classic AT should be playable under ATG.

I have already looked through the scenario bank and am satisfied that I will be able to find something suitable. I guess the older scenarios will have to be updated to include Vic's newest features, such as the "ore and oil" requirements. That alone changes things quite a bit I would guess, since you can no longer just stamp out the steel so to speak, but instead must build a more balanced OOB. As it should be.

Apparently, there are very many -- though, a few who do seem to excell at the creation of mods -- strategic choices available. The "grand strategy" is my first choice, but am not loathe to play a good tactical game either.

Here I will once again request that tweber let me know what is the scale and AI-ability of his Europe 39 scenario when he might have a spare moment.

I intend to buy the game anyhow, but like the eternal kid in the war-gaming store (... so many great stores of yore have gone under, and it's a shame really, but the new world waits for no man I guess) I am pleasantly anxious to know IF I will have that scenario akin to "Clash of Steel" or not? [:)]

Pretty much the only scale AT doesn't handle well (ironicaly enough) is tactical...as there is no facility LOS and a few other things that really only come into play on the tactical level. But you should have no problems finding a plethora of strategic and operational scenerio's.

RE: My question to tweber, I am interested to know if his Europe 39 that Vic has mentioned as being included with ATG, also has an AI?

And, if not, can I take that scenario and study up on the very helpful instructions that are pinned elsewhere, and TRY to insert a workable AI myself? Having been around the hex-gaming block for more years than I care to mention, I am fair satisified that well over HALF of the computer gamers do enjoy playing solo. I am one of those. Heck, I enjoy all kinds of well-crafted games, pixel or cardboard... yeah, true, I do miss the sound and the fury of rolling out those fickle dice! [;)]

Actualy the abiility to do resources already existed in the classic AT engine/editor. It just wasn't incorporated into the standard random games generated by AT. So don't be surprised to see resources in many of the classic AT scenerio's.... I know I made use of them in some of the ones I wrote.

Really, you can do so much with the editor...that for some of the scenerio's it almost feels like playing a completely different game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm HUGELY looking forward to the new features in ATG...... but the foundation for many of the things in there can be found in the classic AT editor.

[Vic]

@grumpymel,

its the same scenario thats included with regular at.. its years old actually. sorry if i gave the impression its anything new.

the new scenarios tom did for ATG only are: a new WAW scenario, a new Eastfront scenario and a new Pacific scenario.

best,
Vic

[freeboy]

are we goingto get these scenarios with purchase of atg?

[Keunert]

yes you get them for free from the scenario bank

[Lion9]

ORIGINAL: Vic

@grumpymel,

its the same scenario thats included with regular at.. its years old actually. sorry if i gave the impression its anything new.

Exactly what are you referring to when you say -- "the same scenario?" Are you talking about the 39 Europe scenario that you had initially mentioned and that I (and not Grumpymel) had asked about earlier in this thread?? So, unless told O/W, I assume then that we will NOT have that "Clash of Steel" kind of 90 km scaled scenario included with ATG?

the new scenarios tom did for ATG only are: a new WAW scenario, a new Eastfront scenario and a new Pacific scenario.

OK, I think I have this straight... tweber's scenarios are just the 3 that you mentioned. Only one of which (Eastfront) has an AI, correct? Therefore you must be the kind of game-player who PREFERS to play HvsH and PBEM -- in order to enjoy the MAIN scenarios being (just now) offered? I mention once again that very many gamers, including myself, MOSTLY play solo games, and for that, it seems, we are pretty much limited to "random generation." Really not sure WHY it would be so problematical for you or Matrix to simply list all of the scenarios, and the scale, and whether they are AI playable or not?

It's like when you buy a new car, you kick the tires and look under the hood and sit in the driver's seat to see how that feels and in general examine all facets of the vehicle BEFORE you buy, no?

Which leads us to the next question -- are there any other ATG-specific scenarios that also have an AI?

Or is the case that we will have to use the OLD AT game (included with ATG) in order to play all those scenarios in the "bank?" That is, UNTIL such time as the old scenarios are updated, and/or -- NEW scenarios are created?

I would imagine they would NEED to be updated due to the new features and rules (such as -- stacking limits, and intercept-uncertainty and many others), but please, correct me if I am mistaken. I mean, the new game engine for ATG is hardly likely to be able to "recognize and adapt" to old and outdated scenarios, true?

Well, who knows, perhaps it will prove out that the eventual mods to come will not only use the new rules and features, but that the new or updated ATG scenarios WILL have a decent AI --even if having to use AI+ or AI++ -- and/or taking on 3 or 4 opponent AI's as Webizen has demonstrated, at one and the same time. [:)]

[Lion9]

One other simple but vital question:

Can I or anyone take a scenario that is included with ATG (and not one "in the bank" so that you might well need permission, or a password due to copyright exclusivity) and RENAME and save the scenario of interest -- oh, let's say the WAW for instance -- so that I or anyone else can improve it? I am especially thinking of upgrading the AI, at least -- insofar as that is possible with the game editor.

[Grymme]

As for the scenarios included in ATG although i am not the designer i think i can safely say that Vic has never minded anyone trying to improve on his scenarios.
 
As for other scenarios i think its at least polite to talk to the author of the original scenario before uploading something, but its also done all the time.

[Lion9]

ORIGINAL: Grymme

As for the scenarios included in ATG although i am not the designer i think i can safely say that Vic has never minded anyone trying to improve on his scenarios.

As for other scenarios i think its at least polite to talk to the author of the original scenario before uploading something, but its also done all the time.

From what I have been able to thus far gather Grymme, it's apparent that you've been around awhile, so I casually take you at your word.

Heck no, not possible that I could very much improve -- Vic's or tweber's or grumpymel's or your scenarios, most likely. But, there IS an editor and it has been highly recommended, so, I guess I am saying it would be great fun to just play around with it some, and see what happens. Maybe something terrible this way comes, but, you take those pixel-dice in hand, sure, you take your chances. [;)]

Yep, I appreciate that talking to the original designer is ideal. Problem arises when the original desginer is no longer anywhere to be found!

[GrumpyMel]

I've never minded anyone doing a varient of one of my scenerio's...so for the record...feel free to mess around with any of mine that you like. I think most designers are pretty welcoming of that...but as Grymme states..it's usualy nice to drop the author a note, just to be sure.

I would suggest that for your first go with the editor that you start out with something small though... and usualy it's better to start fresh with a brand new one when learning the different features of the editor. It's very powerfull but there is a bit of a learning curve to it...and wading into some of the existing scenerio's with it would be pretty daunting for someone until they got the hang of using it. There are a couple of excellent tutorials on using the editor in the mods section here.... I imagine they'll be updated for the newer version of the editor sometime soon as well.

I'm betting that most of the existing AT Classic scenerio's will play reasonably well in ATG. They just won't use some of the new rules/features. I'm sure it won't be long before we start seeing ports of them to ATG as well. I know I'm definately planning on doing my next update for ETO using ATG...have been holding off doing any work on the scenerio until ATG is available actually. I'm sure there are plenty of other designers that are licking thier chops to get thier hands on the updated editor as well.

I know what you are saying about solo play. Unfortunately a decent AI is one of the hardest things to pull off...especialy with games that are so open ended in terms of strategy. I honestly don't even attempt to make my scenerio's work with the AI...simply because I don't have enough confidence in my ability to tweak it to be a good opponent.....but there are plenty of other folks here that do have good experience at tweaking the AI to play well...so I'm sure you'll see some scenerio's well designed for solo play.

[Lion9]

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

I've never minded anyone doing a varient of one of my scenerio's...so for the record...feel free to mess around with any of mine that you like. I think most designers are pretty welcoming of that...but as Grymme states..it's usualy nice to drop the author a note, just to be sure.

Thanks for the generous offer. I would always ask each specific scenario-creator at first, so in this case you've saved me the trouble! [8D]

I would suggest that for your first go with the editor that you start out with something small though... and usualy it's better to start fresh with a brand new one when learning the different features of the editor. It's very powerfull but there is a bit of a learning curve to it...and wading into some of the existing scenerio's with it would be pretty daunting for someone until they got the hang of using it. There are a couple of excellent tutorials on using the editor in the mods section here.... I imagine they'll be updated for the newer version of the editor sometime soon as well.

Fine advice. No doubt I would start with a small scenario, maybe "Kasserine Pass" or "Guadalcanal" or something similar in scope. No doubt about it, this game will require some careful and steady -- climbing of the learning curve. Which is why I had mentioned that I wouldn't lilkely be up for a PBEM game for awhile.

I'm betting that most of the existing AT Classic scenerio's will play reasonably well in ATG. They just won't use some of the new rules/features. I'm sure it won't be long before we start seeing ports of them to ATG as well. I know I'm definately planning on doing my next update for ETO using ATG...have been holding off doing any work on the scenerio until ATG is available actually. I'm sure there are plenty of other designers that are licking thier chops to get thier hands on the updated editor as well.

I'll probably try some of the old scenarios with AT, but mostly probably will wait -- patient as a new novitiate in an old monastery -- until the prior scenarios are updated.

Very good to hear that you are intending to update ETO using the improved ATG rules and features. I'd like to ask you a couple questions WRT to ETO, and respond if you care to:

1) What scale is your ETO?

2) How many weeks/months per turn?

Your scenario will certainly be one that I will be looking forward to, even though there is no AI. Perhaps when you do update it, by that time I"ll be ATG-ready and at least, moderately competitive. Although, I will be hoping that at some point you WILL try to put an AI in there! If you do, I'll here and now volunteer (assuming all is going well on the home front) to help you test it. [;)]

I know what you are saying about solo play. Unfortunately a decent AI is one of the hardest things to pull off...especialy with games that are so open ended in terms of strategy. I honestly don't even attempt to make my scenerio's work with the AI...simply because I don't have enough confidence in my ability to tweak it to be a good opponent.....but there are plenty of other folks here that do have good experience at tweaking the AI to play well...so I'm sure you'll see some scenerio's well designed for solo play.

From what I've been able to tell thus far, a decent AI is hard to pull off no matter what game we are discussing. But I have great respect for those who deliberately stay with it -- standing hard by their own game or scenario, and either improve it by coding (the designer) or by Empire-empiric "trial and error" methodology. OTOH, some games, well, they just pitch 'em out there and let 'em die on the vine. CEAW, for one instance. Quite disappointing but I show my colors by refusing to buy any other game that they make, just on general principle. LOL, not that they care a jot!

I understand that Vic's other release (Warsaw, Paris) is reputed to have a BETTER AI. I wonder if he might continue to improve ATG with futher patches down the road a piece, and especially having to do with AI improvements. That would be mighty welcome, it would be ideal, and would be happily and heavily applauded by me. Many others as well, I am sure. [:)]














[/quote]

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: Lion9



I'll probably try some of the old scenarios with AT, but mostly probably will wait -- patient as a new novitiate in an old monastery -- until the prior scenarios are updated.

Very good to hear that you are intending to update ETO using the improved ATG rules and features. I'd like to ask you a couple questions WRT to ETO, and respond if you care to:

1) What scale is your ETO?

2) How many weeks/months per turn?

Your scenario will certainly be one that I will be looking forward to, even though there is no AI. Perhaps when you do update it, by that time I"ll be ATG-ready and at least, moderately competitive. Although, I will be hoping that at some point you WILL try to put an AI in there! If you do, I'll here and now volunteer (assuming all is going well on the home front) to help you test it. [;)]

Scale is about 15 miles per hex, divisional level, 15 days per turn. So definately somewhat of a monster.

[Vic]

Just to avoid any confusion: any scenario on the scenariobank can be played with ATG. It will play 99.9% the same as it did in old AT.

Any of my scenarios may of course be modded beyond recognition. Actually i encourage it.

kind regards,
Vic

[Grymme]

Lion9

If you want to start of as an editor might i suggest that you look through the nice editor tutorials that are available both as stickied threads on the mod forum and as pdf files here

http://www.advancedtactics.org/documents.php

The take you through most of the basic editing options in the original AT and is musthave knowledge for anyone who wants to edit ATG.

[Lion9]

Thanks immensely Vic and Grumpymel and Grymme and all others as well -- for all of your helpful responses! [:)]

I had originally intended to purchase ATG just as soon as available, but due to recent assault on my limited gaming budget (car repairs, are there no end to them!), I had to wait some. Now I am glad I did. 40 bucks is no small investment for me.

1) I am primarily a solo game player. Therefore I have limited options: a) Random game, b) one of the 4 "even-steven" scenarios (well, I have no idea what these are like, so cannot yet appreciate their value) or c) the one and ONLY other scenario -- that includes FULL implementation of ALL new rules and features) which is WAW. It's not enough, given the price.

2) Disappointed to read today that the AI+ and AI++ are so drastic and such huge leap from one to the next. I would agree with the other person who requested an AI with many more gradations. Not sure why that couldn't be coded quite easily? Maybe it can be! That would be great.

[to tie the first 2 together -- if I only play the random and one of the few others that is all-inclusive WRT rules & features, well, without more gradations in the AI I am concerned that I would soon enough run out of viable AI opponents; naturally, I can wait awhile longer until the included scenarios are upgraded, if ever, and/or some new ones to appear; how long that might be is anyone's guess, I guess]

3) All of the DL problems are also a worry. Not sure how that could be -- given the length and extent of Matrix sales experience?

4) The supply seems to be more micro-managing than I would prefer. This may be a mistaken concern, IDK, but mostly I just want to play the game and not be constantly checking supply/readiness status. That's just me, so, don't hold it against me!

5) What appears to be -- at least in part -- an awkward and difficult editor. Yep, I have read where some are saying quite the opposite and are in fact, according to evidence and not mere supposition -- quite good at it. I am a novice, plain and simple.

Well, I am not going to take all day here spelling out in complete detail those things that aren't quite right for me. Primarily because -- they NEVER ever could be, unless I made the game myself! You bet, I do realize there ARE many good aspects to this game and those may be enough to finally sway me to the yea instead of the nay.

The very best being that Vic seems to be right on top of all bugs and is apparently listening to all suggestions. That is providential, and so -- I'll keep checking back every week or so (and also important -- see what arrives in the first patch) and who knows? Maybe I buy ATG sooner rather than later! [8D]

[Grymme]

Lion9

I would never dream of forcing you to buy the game if you dont want to. Can i just ask? Do you own AT?

Anyway, visavi some of your points.

1) There are actually 168 scenarios/mods etc for the game and 40 some in progress. It is true that only a couple of them are programmed using ATG, but all AT scenarios are fully playable and there are some ATG scenarios that can be downloaded from the scenariobank or otherwise, more ATG scenarios are also added everyday.

A more or less full list of the scenarios can be found here.

tm.asp?m=2759761

2) the difference between AI, AI+ and AI++ can be seen as large. But thats not the only way of setting the difficultygrade of the AI. There are other settings such as setting the map to be AI optimal. And in the editor you can do anything, so if you want the AI to have +1,24631% advantage or get an extra armored car every second tuesday on the month that is doable also. Its a common practice of scenariodesigners for example to have options that gives handicaps for each side.

3) Cant help you there. But if you buy the game i am pretty sure that Matrixgames guarantee that you will get it.

4) Supply can be quite easy and it can be hard. Depending on how deep you want to delve into it. But basicly Supply fleets automaticly from your production locations to their assigned HQs and from there to subordinated HQs and units. So It can be very little micromanagment if you go basic. Units will fill up automaticly to 100% readiness if possible. So it CAN be easy to learn the basics and just play. But if you want to delve into it and manage supply manually it can be quite challenging.

5) The editor is quite easy to learn the basics in but very complicated and advanced if you want to become a master at it. But dont take my word for it. There are 10 tutorials in the Mod section. If you follow them you have basicly created your own scenario. I did this and got of in a day or two to make my own first scenario (admittedly a crappy one, but i have developed since then).

When you buy ATG you dont just buy ATG it also includes everything for AT. A game i have played pretty much every week since it came out. So it would be a petty to miss it.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: Lion9

1) I am primarily a solo game player. Therefore I have limited options: a) Random game, b) one of the 4 "even-steven" scenarios (well, I have no idea what these are like, so cannot yet appreciate their value) or c) the one and ONLY other scenario -- that includes FULL implementation of ALL new rules and features) which is WAW. It's not enough, given the price.

It is important to reiterate that there is NO ATG WaW scenario playable against the AI, but there ARE some gigantic East Front scenarios. One CAN of course play the OLD WaW scenarios with ATG and they will play about the same as they did with AT, but using the new GUI and graphics.

This is a disappointment for me too, because I too am a solo-only player and WaW was my favorite scenario. I might add that although I was not a big fan of the AT random scenarios, the new ATG random are much better (and more difficult), have more options and support much bigger maps.

I would be surprised if someone did not come up sooner or later with a ATG WaW designed for AI play, but programming the AI to use fuel, resources and so on and debugging such a game could be a gigantic task.I would guess that the first version we see will have only a few of the new features, namely oil and raw.

There is no hurry for you to get the game if you are not sure it's what you want or if you are short of money. After all, there is still the old WaW, and there are other WW2 World conquest wargames on the market.In my case, I ordered the game even without waiting for information about the discount, but I can afford it. If I get a week of play from a game, I figure I got my money's worth, after all the price is less than a dinner at the restaurant or a hockey game.

Henri