Pass the Kryptonite - Oleg's Supermen are coming! 1943 AAR.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Some betas are acting as if they are enemies of the game. How do they expect anyone would play 43GC if they openly, and with complete disregard for tact, etiquette and the NDA, publicly say the scenario is horribly broken?

And let me be perfectly clear here, it's not Bob. When I say "some betas are acting if they are enemies of the game" I think of you, speedy and possibly Keke (he is prone to losing temper occasionally, otherwise he's OK).

[Klydon]

Oleg, that Bob resigned doesn't surprise me on this run through. I have been keeping up with the AAR and his comments and I will add a few comments of my own as a neutral observer.

First, you played an outstanding game from the start. You got your army organized and on the roll in very short order. Bob had mentioned you had even surpassed Flavio in concentration of artillery and done it faster. Your offensive just before mud broke was absolutely huge and while we don't have the details, I think that is what broke his will to continue. It was an outstanding move and there was nothing he could do about it. Hats off to you on an excellently run game plan and organization.

As far as being "behind schedule" that was to be expected since the Germans did not first launch a "Kursk offensive" followed by a Russian counter attack. He had a lot of fresh troops to try to blunt your attacks and was successful in slowing you down at first. His losses were getting to the point that he was just getting pounded into oblivion. It got to the point he made the comment that even counter attacking was too costly and he had to stop doing it and he expressed a lot of frustration with that fact (rightly so I think). There was no signs of the Russians slowing down to him (or us watching the AAR) as he kept hoping you would eventually run out of steam, but it wasn't happening.

From his standpoint of view, the Germans were trashed and getting pretty much close to the point of collapse. He could not attack effectively and it was going to become a simple "push the counters around and watch the Russians utterly destroy anything in front of them" effort. Time is a precious thing to most everyone. It takes a lot of effort and investment of time to play a turn in a game like this. It would be one thing if turns took a short amount of time, but they don't and people have better things to do with their time, especially when a situation is not fun for them any longer. To him (and a lot of us watching) it was clear there were some issues with how the game was treating various aspects of things and that it needs to be looked at and more work done. That ends my points on this particular event.

I suspect that very few games will see 1944 let alone the end of the game because most players (especially Germans) will resign when they think its over. The Russians are going to be forever getting hammered in 1941 and will never really have the satisfaction of placing the Germans in the same boat and have the Germans continue to play to the end.

As far as Bob resigning as a tester, it is very unfortunate. I had wondered what happen to Flavio and figured he was on break. Apparently that may not be the case, which is also very unfortunate. I hope both decide to return at some point because they were among the most active on the boards here along with Pieter and as longer term testers, had a lot of knowledge and insight into the game.

[ComradeP]

I started the game with that premise, only to learn, mere 14 turns later, that the scenario is "horribly broken" and that it appears to be widely shared opinion at least among some betas. Hey, why play it for 14 turns then? Why play it at all? Why is it even included in the game, let alone chosen by fellow beta tester as preferred scenario???

Do you think those are legit questions to ask in my position?

Some betas are acting as if they are enemies of the game. How do they expect anyone would play 43GC if they openly, and with complete disregard for tact, etiquette and the NDA, publicly say the scenario is horribly broken?

I'm not saying it's horribly broken, it's unbalanced. You didn't learn that it was unbalanced, you were told it was because you didn't see it. A more accurate statement would be that Bob said it was essentially unbalanced and saw no reason to continue, you essentially called him a whiner and insisted on fighting him in public even though you were also talking in private.

It's not the questions you ask, it's how you ask them, how you insult beta testers and how you behave in general.

I'm not discussing tact or etiquette with you, as you're oblivious to what they are. I don't see how we're violating the NDA by giving a bit of insight as to what we're discussing in our capacity as testers, we're talking about what we're saying and not what the developers are saying. Jyri is improving the 1943 scenario, the developers are busy with other things.

I'm not an enemy of the game, but I might be your enemy considering that I find your attitude silly at best. You run around claiming something is broken, but you don't want to prove it (you didn't want to play a game against me), you were satisfied with making unsubstantiated claims. I think I have a pretty accurate idea of how our 1941 game would've gone: you would've made less than the historical progress and you would've put on a different "me too" shirt and suddenly start proclaiming that the Axis side is underpowered in 1941. That's what you do, you're like a populistic political party: you sell words, you never actually try to prove any of it.

If I would be an enemy of the game, I would not be on the testing team, and neither would Steven or Jyri. In a way, I'd say you're lucky you have what could be called friends in high places as otherwise your behaviour would probably have attracted a warning or two now, but some of the people on the testing team think you're a good person. That must be the alter-ego of the person you are on the forum.

Someone said that there were more insults here than there ever were on the WitP forum, but I'm not going to accept it if someone like you insults what comes down to the entire testing team. You can do that over my dead body, but not now.

-

Klydon: Flavio is just swamped with real life issues currently.

[Oleg Mastruko]

I don't want to play a 41GC Axis campaign vs you Pieter for a myriad of reasons, limited time being just one. I also don't get the idea you're too pleasant a guy for regular mail communication (Bob was and is super pleasant, that's why I accepted his challenge ie this game).

Also, I don't want to start dozens of games, right now I would prefer to actually FINISH some games I started but with people quitting it's pretty hard...... Win or lose, that game between you and me would not prove anything decisively. It would be just one game, among hundereds, that's all. Still, we may play some day, why not? I accept all sorts of challenges and some day I may accept yours. Right now, though, I would prefer to finish this game that I invested dozens of hours into, rather than start any new ones, with a guy that's not too pleasant to communicate with.

[ComradeP]

I'm not too pleasant to those who insult my fellow testers, me and the things we stand for and do. I have my reasons to dislike you, it's not an automatic dislike, it's due to your behaviour.

Now, as this somewhat spoils the AAR, maybe we should call it a day as we're never going to agree anyway. I don't know if Mynok or whoever is taking up the Axis gauntlet wants to use this AAR or start a new one.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I suspect that very few games will see 1944 let alone the end of the game because most players (especially Germans) will resign when they think its over. The Russians are going to be forever getting hammered in 1941 and will never really have the satisfaction of placing the Germans in the same boat and have the Germans continue to play to the end.

Exactly, that's why I think this game or any other 43GC game is VERY important as mid-war benchmark for both sides. My line of thought was: if I can win this, then I know that 43GC starting position is something to shoot for when playing 41GC and 42GC as Soviets.

Same thing goes for Germans - if they can defend successfully in 43GC then they know what to aim for when doing earlier campaigns.

It appears that AS SOON as they are pushed 10 hexes back German players give up and think they are screwed (by the game, system, bugs, balance, whatever). I am still billion miles from Berlin for gods sake.

I played meticolous, extremely time consuming, and also extremely enjoyable 14 turns. It required all the skill I possess in this game to inflict the casualty rate I inflicted. Still, for me, this game is far far from over. Berlin is long long way to go. The idea that someone can resign this early in the scenario, with his buddies in the wings crying "YES YES, horribly broken! unbalanced!!!" well that's just crazy IMO.

Some think I am the "trouble boy" for saying this scenario needs to be played more to reach some sensible conclusions.

If the conclusions are already made, and apparently for Pieter and Keke they are, then why just don't we delete this horribly broken scenario and never play it again, for 14, 44 or 1 turn(s)?? Why waste mine or anyone else's time? Ain't that a logical thing to ask?

As for Flavio I heard he is absent for some professional reasons and will be back.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Now, as this somewhat spoils the AAR, maybe we should call it a day as we're never going to agree anyway. I don't know if Mynok or whoever is taking up the Axis gauntlet wants to use this AAR or start a new one.

Indeed, the idea is to continue this game.

If Mynok manages to stop my horribly overpowered, utterly disbalanced army of Soviet supermen cyborg clones, I expect a public apology and praise FOR HIM (not me), by YOU [:D]

If I roll over him, I expect nothing. It's just the bad boy Oleg abusing the horribly broken scenario, that somehow got past all the careful beta testers, to the max.... [;)]

[Mynok]

I'm going to keep this AAR going while I continue the game with Oleg. I have no delusions really about the situation. It's terminal. I intend to have some fun seeing how 43 Germans work (and watching real Soviets ).

[Mynok]

And Oleg, it's time for you to stop posting here. I'm going to begin posting AAR stuff on this page now. [8D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

That's right, with this post I sign off from this thread and won't be visiting it again. I send turn later tonight.

Mynok, this is your chance for a moment of glory. Just imagine, stopping the overpowered, insanely numerous Soviets at the Polish border, receiving endless praises from Pieter and his "HB* club" buddies!!!! Something to strive for! [:D]

* - horribly broken

[squatter]

This turned into a great thread all of a sudden!
 
This isnt meant solely at Oleg by any means (although definitely partially), but anyone else noticing the huge correlation between those saying that a given scenario is broken/unbalanced and being on the losing side in said scenario, and those saying everything is fine and being on the winning side of said scenario?!
 

[ComradeP]

That's only natural. When you're winning, you quickly turn blind to a scenario's flaws or a plan's flaws (victory fever can be rather problematic), when you're losing you try to figure out why (that is, if you're taking the rational approach, the irrational approach would be blaming it on how gamey your opponent is). I'm looking at the scenario with an outsider perspective, I wasn't really involved with testing the scenario.

Oleg can't really say why he thinks the scenario works, whilst I have already given a few reasons for why it doesn't for the Axis. Of course, Oleg then starts exaggerating.

I will, however, certainly compliment Mynok if he can reform a stable defensive line somewhere. Oleg is indeed a long while from Berlin, but the Wehrmacht's pretty beaten up for the timeframe. A draw might still be possible, but the Axis are sort of handicapped by the losses they've suffered thus far.

[Aditia]

Below a screenshot of a reserve unit commited to the defence and not getting the fort bonuses.
Also the highly modified attacker CV can be observed.

The reserve unit had a counter CV of 11, so this looks like unbonused CV (right?)

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

15.5.3. DEFENSIVE RESERVE UNIT SPECIAL RULES

Defending reserves are considered counter-attacking forces and normally do not get the benefit of fortification levels in combat, though they do benefit from all terrain modifiers that are valid for the hex being attacked. The exception is that reserves committed in defense to fighting in Urban hexes will receive the full defensive fortification modifier of both the terrain and fortification levels in the hex

Leo "Apollo11"

[ComradeP]

That explains why that Guards unit in Rostov I mentioned got an amazing CV, and Aditia's Panzer division had its normal CV.

[Aditia]

And I think it is incorrect [:D]

To give an example from a different game: In panzer campaigns and modern campaigns, I'll happily throw reserve units into a fight if the defensive line is still somewhat intact. If the defensive fortifications are broken I will usually withdraw the front units to the line that was being prepared by the reserve units

[Mynok]

Well, I've seen the latest turn and it isn't really very pretty. My troops levels are better than I gathered (28k rifle squads on the map) from Bob's manpower concerns, but as you can see below, manpower levels are really bad. Maybe he is just more familiar and can see where this is going.



Considering this is my first non-41 game ever, not to mention my first PBEM ever, this will likely be German rout. However, we will give it a go.

General thoughts:

1) The Dnepr is still a useful defensive obstruction in the center and we will retreat to it post-haste.
2) The Crimean threat is very serious. 17th army is going to run for the Dnepr as fast as possible, but it is unlikely to totally make it. I'm waiting for Bob to provide his thoughts on the matter before making final dispositions here.
3) I'm too unfamiliar with 43 combat to really be able to make an assessment of how containable the Dnepropetrovsk breach is. Looking for any and all advice here.

One final curiousity .... what are all these frozen Rumanians in southern Russia? [&:]

[Aditia]

In my own PBEM of that scenario I do enjoy looking at frozen romenians and hungarians a few hexes from ungarrisoned cities

[mmarquo]

Mynok - the only thing to do is to run so fast that he seriously outruns his supply lines, and then try to reorganize.

[mmarquo]

As for Oleg - I was going to offer to take over...his side...and for him to continue as...the Axis.[:)]
 
Marquo