if you are able to produce the A6M8 in 6/43 (two years early?)
Tracker indicates the A6M8 arrives normal @ 8/43. I may get it into production by 4/43, but I must research the A6M5b first. I could go direct research on a6m8 but the m5b is next version on the tree.
then I guess you would also be able to produce things like the Shinden sometime in mid 43 and this would come down to never get crushed
The shinden arrives normal on 12/45. It has no family of previous fighters to help research so it is from scratch. I did not realize the shinden is the "be all answer" to IJ air superiority.
My thoughts on the end game air war is I really like the look of the a7m3j w/ a gun rating of 30. This frame also has no family tree. so maybe it will arrive about 6/44 instead of 2/45 if I dedicate 3 30 point factories to research...
The A6M8 of REAL LIFE was the last Zero model and IIRC the first one flew sometime between beginning - mid 45 while it never went into production. So either you are confusing something here, tracker is wrong or the game is wrong.
This fighter is an END WAR fighter just like the Shinden, so if you are able to produce it in mid 43 then I again can only say "to each his own" but that got nothing to do with reality and your opponent could well mod the Nimitz into the game to show up in early 42.
A6M8c (Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 54c)
engine: 1x Mitsubishi Kinsei Model 62 engine [1,340hp at 6,890ft]
w/ 3-bladed constant speed Sumitomo propeller
speed: 356mph at 19,685ft
climb rate: 6min50sec to 19,685ft
ceiling: 36,745ft
fuel: 610liter internal + 2x 350liter underwing drop tanks
range:
weight: 4,750lb (empty), 6,945lb (loaded)
armament: 2x 13.2mm Type 3 machine guns, 2x 20mm Type 99 Model 2 Mark 4 cannon w/125rpg, 1x 550lb or 1,100lb bombs, 2x 132lb bombs number built: 2 prototypes only notes: first flown 25 May 1945
A6M8 (Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 64)
engine: 1x Mitsubishi Kinsei Model 62 engine [1,560hp at take-off, 1,340hp at 6,890ft, 1,180hp at 19,030ft] w/ 3-bladed constant speed Sumitomo propeller
speed: 356mph at 19,685ft
climb rate: 6min50sec to 19,685ft [26,240ft? 3,140ft/min - Green]
ceiling: 37,075ft
fuel: 610liter internal + 2x 350liter under-wing drop tanks
range:
weight: 4,740lb (empty), 6,945lb (loaded)
armament: 2x 13.2mm Type 3 machine guns, 2x 20mm Type 99 Model 2 Mark 4 cannon w/125rpg, 1x 550lb or 1,100lb bombs, 2x 132lb bombs number built: 2 prototypes only notes: first flown 25 May 1945, production version of A6M8c, 6,300 to be built by Mitsubishi and Nakajima, none completed
Castror, bigred is playing a mod, not any official scenario... [8|]
RA scenario commentary: This scenario assumes, that with Yamamoto assuming the position of the Aeronautics Department's head in 1936 and becoming the Naval Minister later, he intensifies Japanese naval aviation development a bit, and attempts to optimize the utilization of limited engineering and production resourses. Chief engineers of aircraft design teams are given slightly greater input in formulating development directions and cooperation between various aircraft manufacturers is assumed to be somewhat improved.
In particular, the concept of dedicated land-based interceptor is abandoned and the Mitshubishi fighter design team under Jiro Horikoshi remains free to concentrate all of its efforts on modifying A6M and creating its successor A7M.
Castror, bigred is playing a mod, not any official scenario... [8|]
RA scenario commentary: This scenario assumes, that with Yamamoto assuming the position of the Aeronautics Department's head in 1936 and becoming the Naval Minister later, he intensifies Japanese naval aviation development a bit, and attempts to optimize the utilization of limited engineering and production resourses. Chief engineers of aircraft design teams are given slightly greater input in formulating development directions and cooperation between various aircraft manufacturers is assumed to be somewhat improved.
In particular, the concept of dedicated land-based interceptor is abandoned and the Mitshubishi fighter design team under Jiro Horikoshi remains free to concentrate all of its efforts on modifying A6M and creating its successor A7M.
well, that explains it then. Mods of course can give any player any aircraft at any date the creator wishes too. It could also give you a Nimitz CV in 42. I didn´t know it is a fantasy mod as the thread title only says "IJ production mistakes" and I dared not to read up 15 pages. Excuse
edit: fantasy mod in terms of not historical, I don´t want to piss someone off if he get´s it wrong.
edit: fantasy mod in terms of not historical, I don´t want to piss someone off if he get´s it wrong.
Its ok, castor. We realy are just having fun!!! Be advised even w/ these advanced carrier planes whenever I go against land based CAP I still get creamed and take heavy loses.
ORIGINAL: castor troy
if you are able to produce the A6M8 in 6/43 (two years early?) then I guess you would also be able to produce things like the Shinden sometime in mid 43 and this would come down to never get crushed as the Japanese because if you field unlimited high end fighters in 43 that face historical Allied fighters (and their historical replacement rates) then you win high time as the Japanese, no matter what the Allied is doing as a P-40K won´t be a match for a Shinden or even better IJ stuff.
An interesting (in its utter insanity) jump of logic from accelerating A6M8 by two months, to accelerating Shinden by 2.5 years you have here, but fortunately it has nothing to do with Scen 70.
As a side note (not for you castor, because you clearly believe that it is Allies' unalienable right to not only win the war a year earlier without taking major risks in 1942 for it, but to also not have any difficulties in the proccess, so arguing with you is pointless), getting A6M8 if not on 8/43 (when it becomes available in Scen 70), then around 12/43 is not hard in stock. Research A6M3 with 100+ facilities, then switch them to every successive model. People usually don't do it either because they don't want to piss their opponents off, or because A6M8 kind of blows (only marginally better than A6M5 and with poor range), so they don't care. Seriously, we felt necessary to boost A6M8's stats in Scen 70, compared to what it is given in stock, so that people won't wonder why its earlier appearance is supposed to matter, like, at all.
ORIGINAL: castor troy
if you are able to produce the A6M8 in 6/43 (two years early?) then I guess you would also be able to produce things like the Shinden sometime in mid 43 and this would come down to never get crushed as the Japanese because if you field unlimited high end fighters in 43 that face historical Allied fighters (and their historical replacement rates) then you win high time as the Japanese, no matter what the Allied is doing as a P-40K won´t be a match for a Shinden or even better IJ stuff.
An interesting (in its utter insanity) jump of logic from accelerating A6M8 by two months, to accelerating Shinden by 2.5 years you have here, but fortunately it has nothing to do with Scen 70.
As a side note (not for you castor, because you clearly believe that it is Allies' unalienable right to not only win the war a year earlier without taking major risks in 1942 for it, but to also not have any difficulties in the proccess, so arguing with you is pointless), getting A6M8 if not on 8/43 (when it becomes available in Scen 70), then around 12/43 is not hard in stock. Research A6M3 with 100+ facilities, then switch them to every successive model. People usually don't do it either because they don't want to piss their opponents off, or because A6M8 kind of blows (only marginally better than A6M5 and with poor range), so they don't care. Seriously, we felt necessary to boost A6M8's stats in Scen 70, compared to what it is given in stock, so that people won't wonder why its earlier appearance is supposed to matter, like, at all.
if you haven´t read my further comments then it definately is pointless to argue with you but with 2 A6M8 produced in real life in mid 45 and having them being produced in mid 43 would be 2 years early. Not to talk about the real life possibility for the Allied to win the war a year earlier probably being higher than seeing the Japanese pump out hundreds of A6M8 in mid 43. Both is problematic IMO, but like I´ve said, any mod can give you any aircraft, ship, tank, starship at any date the mod creator wishes to and if the players are happy with it then it´s perfect for both sides. I´m fine with that and my comment about the availability date was nothing but based on real life and a historical scenario, like it would be if someone said Yamato had 12 main guns (which isn´t something I just made up but something I´ve even seen in a small scenario mod during WITP times, being a typo or deliberately I don´t know). Just like in WITP, the abilities for the Japanese to even win the war in a PBEM or doing far better than real life surely are higher than those of the Allied to succesfully land in Japan in mid 44 so I wonder where "Allies' unalienable right to not only win the war a year earlier without taking major risks in 1942" comes from but that´s just putting this thread into another direction.
edit: fantasy mod in terms of not historical, I don´t want to piss someone off if he get´s it wrong.
Its ok, castor. We realy are just having fun!!! Be advised even w/ these advanced carrier planes whenever I go against land based CAP I still get creamed and take heavy loses.
sorry again for commenting while not being aware it´s an ahistorical scenario.
I am curious, and my apologies if I missed reading an earlier post, but what exactly is at the first facility (listed at Maebashi 40(0))? I couldn't tell if it is a mod database error or if you blanked it out.
ORIGINAL: bigred
And here we have the conversion to a6m5 at no cost to the factory. I just clicked the a6m5 button on the left.
I am curious, and my apologies if I missed reading an earlier post, but what exactly is at the first facility (listed at Maebashi 40(0))? I couldn't tell if it is a mod database error or if you blanked it out.
ORIGINAL: bigred
And here we have the conversion to a6m5 at no cost to the factory. I just clicked the a6m5 button on the left.
I dont know...I never figured it out...I tried to change it to a frame but nothing is there to change...guess it is a senario bug.
BTW, all readers, I do appriciate your commentary, no matter how critical. I do feel honored that Castor reads this thread as he is a well known player(and maybe I will get to play him later and manipulate IJAAF research against him!!!).
I honestly did not know that manipulation of the IJA R/D was considered gamey and I also can now see caster's point of View. My attitude when I began was to modify production as hard and as fast as possible for increase in IJA operational advantage.
I am also sure when I play my next game my opponent and I will hash out a few HRs, but I really like topeverest attitude.
quote:
From: topeverest
To: bigred
Date: 12/8/2010 9:12:53 PM
Subject: RE: house rule
Sorry for the delay...hectic work schedule.
Keeping in mind I do play with 'No New Allied TF's on dec 7" but I believe that is universal if you are playing surprise on first turn. It wont do for the Americans to move the BB's out of Pearl. The only HR I play with is "No strategic bombing until Jan 1, 1943." I find the game loses balance quickly if the allies can strat bomb in 42. Burma, china, and Malaya can go, and enterprising allied players will find a way to SB the Home islands and DEI before the empire can shore up reasonably. The empire can and will get behind in booty hauling and never recover against a skilled allied opponent that can do this - and significantly shorten the war...but that is a topic for another day.
Every HR I can think of is a player rationalization to take away a combat option of the enemy under the ruse of some proposed 'lack of accuracy' or 'lack of realism' in the game. Example, No HB naval attack under 10K - that has to be the silliest HR yet. Players that agree to this have never even looked and seen that no allied HB starts with any skill in naval bombardment. It would take a minimum of 3 to 4 months of straight training to gain 60+ skill to have any possible chance of hitting an enemy ship. If the owning player spends the time to train some and then deploy them at 6K to bomb, why shouldn't that be possible. Just because the allies rarely committed HB's this way does not mean it was impossible to do or would not have worked. Another example is invading only at base hexes. We all know the opposite occurred on a number of occasions where it was feasible.
The game is already packed with practically impossible and highly improbable capabilities in favor of good gaming, and I think that is a good thing in most cases. Perhaps the quintessential example - restricted HQ's, units, and releases that are meant to slow down the allied war and delay the allied strength from deployment at the same time the Empire has large land unit availability. This creates the quite artificial (but most exciting) ability to smash 14-17 Empire divisions most at any place in the Pacific and force desperate allied defensive gaming with artificially limited ground forces in 42.
Don't get swayed by the 'masses'. The game is well balanced in that it provides actual and potential capabilities (and the chance for other even greater capabilities). Play her as she is, and she will run true.
Let me know if you have questions on specific HR's.
_____________________________
Andy M
This is my first long term WitP/AE game so I learn as I go.
Sorry I didn't jump in earlier but life has been pretty insane at my home and work.
BigRed put me onto this discussion a few days ago but I haven't had a chance to contribute. Let me hit a few points and I'll ask BK and FatR to jump in if they can:
1. There were little-to-no changes to the IJA. RA is a Yamamoto 'what if' scenario and, thus, the Army forces are barely touched. Only real difference between Scenario 1 and this with the IJA is a slight redeployment of opening ground units and a few additions to existing AA units.
2. The IJN Fighters are, obviously, massively changed. As quoted earlier the Japanese don't get the Jack. The creators and designers of the Zero airframe devote their entire time to getting the maximum bang for the Japanese buck with that aircraft.
Zero develops into two lines of production:
a. The carrier-based version M2-M5 is the same. These planes are simply brought in earlier.
b. The ground-based interceptor is the new development line. IRL the IJN worked with this a bit, however, nothing was really accomplished. Here we see the line change with M3-M4 and later models.
The changed fighters, in my RA Campaign (Nov 1942), are an improvement but the Tojo is still the best Japanese land-based fighter at the time.
BigRed: What questions do you have regarding the Mod that we can help with?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
In case Stanislav doesn't have the chance to jump in (he is deeply involved in finishing off RA 3.0) these are his comments Posted at the start of the RA Thread as to the aircraft industry:
This scenario assumes, that with Yamamoto assuming the position of the Aeronautics Department's head in 1936 and becoming the Naval Minister later, he intensifies Japanese naval aviation development a bit, and attempts to optimize the utilization of limited engineering and production resourses. Chief engineers of aircraft design teams are given slightly greater input in formulating development directions and cooperation between various aircraft manufacturers is assumed to be somewhat improved.
In particular, the concept of dedicated land-based interceptor is abandoned and the Mitshubishi fighter design team under Jiro Horikoshi remains free to concentrate all of its efforts on modifying A6M and creating its successor A7M. Horikoshi's proposal to install the more powerful Mitsubishi Kinsei engine on Zero is approved in 1942, instead of late 1944, and A7M is developed to use Mitsubishi Ha-43 engine, as he desired, from the beginning. A6M3 is developed into a whole line of Zeros that sacrifice range in favor of superior armament and pilot protection, and eventually are officially designated as pure land-based models. IJN maintains the policy of sticking to just one single-engine fighter airframe, until Kawanishi team develops N1K1-J Shiden as a private initiative (this happens slighltly earlier than in RL, because alternate projects of land-based interceptors, that tied Kawanishi resourses, do not exist). It is adopted as a stopgap measure until availability of A7M.
As a side effect of greater effort put into development and production of Mitsubishi Kinsei (Ha-33) and Mitsubishi Ha-43 engines, several planes that historically used these engines are added to the mod (if they existed only as prototypes by the war's end), or accelerated.
Aircraft weapon development is streamlined, with a push for unification with IJAAF in this area (historically, IJN and IJA did cooperate in aircraft weapon production, in this scenario their cooperation becomes much broader). Instead of attempts to produce licensed German machine guns, that ultimately failed to provide the fleet with sufficient numbers of them, IJN switches to the more powerful Army 7.7 catridge and eventually adopts 12.7 Ho-103, the first aircraft HMG developed in Japan. This allows for improved armament on some planes, mostly 2E bombers.
This scenario also assumes mild overall boost to Japanese aircraft industry (at the cost of reduction in starting resources). As a result, several planes that historically faced severe problems with transition from prototypes to mass production, such as B6N, D4Y and G4M2, become available a bit earlier. G8N1, the Japanese 4E bomber that was successfuly tested but not mass-produced in real life, becomes available in 1945.
In addition, there are many minor tweaks to various aircraft, intended to make their statblocks and performance closer to historical. The changes that can affect gameplay most noticeably include:
-Early Japanese fighters (Ha-35 Zeros and Ki-43) have their high-altitude MVR reduced.
-G4M has slightly better durability, G3M sligtly worse, to give G4M an edge over the older plane it historically had.
-E16A1 Paul no longer has artificially reduced normal range.
-Ki-44 uses Nakakima Ha-34 engine, instead of Ha-35, for historical accuracy.
-Late Ki-61 versions are slightly improved. Ki-100s are significantly improved. In RL they were supposed to be good, particularly Ki-100, but in AE they are very underwhelming.
-Ki-67-Ib does not lose the ability to carry torpedos.
-Old Russian fighters no longer have unparalelled MVR. Their clear superiority to Nate has to go.
Following aircraft were added to this scenario (all but new Zeros and G3M4-Q existed in RL as prototypes or even production models):
-A6M3b Zero. Replaces A6M3a and emphasized armor and weapons instead of range.
-A6M4, A6M4-J, A6M8-J. Successors to A6M3b that follow the same design philosopshy but use Mitshubishi Ha-33 engine.
-A7M3. The historical successor to A7M2. Carrier-capable and features 6x20mm armament. A7M2 factory upgrades to it, instead of A7M3-J.
-B7A3. The historical armored successor to B7M2. Uses Mitsubishi Ha-43 engine.
-D4Y5. Mitshubishi Ha-43, armor. D4Y3 upgrades to it. (D4Y4 was a kamikaze plane in RL.)
-G3M4-Q. ASW patrol version of Nell.
-G8N1. Fast, tough, long-ranged 4E bomber.
-J6M1. IJN version of Ki-83.
-N1K4-A. Carrier-capable Shiden.
-N1K5-J. High-altitude interceptor Shiden. Uses Mitsubishi Ha-43 engine.
-Yasukuni. IJN version of Ki-67. "Yasukuni" might actually be the name of the naval unit, that employed these bombers in RL, but I can't find any other designation for them.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
BTW, all readers, I do appriciate your commentary, no matter how critical. I do feel honored that Castor reads this thread as he is a well known player(and maybe I will get to play him later and manipulate IJAAF research against him!!!).
I honestly did not know that manipulation of the IJA R/D was considered gamey and I also can now see caster's point of View. My attitude when I began was to modify production as hard and as fast as possible for increase in IJA operational advantage.
I am also sure when I play my next game my opponent and I will hash out a few HRs, but I really like topeverest attitude.
quote:
From: topeverest
To: bigred
Date: 12/8/2010 9:12:53 PM
Subject: RE: house rule
Sorry for the delay...hectic work schedule.
Keeping in mind I do play with 'No New Allied TF's on dec 7" but I believe that is universal if you are playing surprise on first turn. It wont do for the Americans to move the BB's out of Pearl. The only HR I play with is "No strategic bombing until Jan 1, 1943." I find the game loses balance quickly if the allies can strat bomb in 42. Burma, china, and Malaya can go, and enterprising allied players will find a way to SB the Home islands and DEI before the empire can shore up reasonably. The empire can and will get behind in booty hauling and never recover against a skilled allied opponent that can do this - and significantly shorten the war...but that is a topic for another day.
Every HR I can think of is a player rationalization to take away a combat option of the enemy under the ruse of some proposed 'lack of accuracy' or 'lack of realism' in the game. Example, No HB naval attack under 10K - that has to be the silliest HR yet. Players that agree to this have never even looked and seen that no allied HB starts with any skill in naval bombardment. It would take a minimum of 3 to 4 months of straight training to gain 60+ skill to have any possible chance of hitting an enemy ship. If the owning player spends the time to train some and then deploy them at 6K to bomb, why shouldn't that be possible. Just because the allies rarely committed HB's this way does not mean it was impossible to do or would not have worked. Another example is invading only at base hexes. We all know the opposite occurred on a number of occasions where it was feasible.
The game is already packed with practically impossible and highly improbable capabilities in favor of good gaming, and I think that is a good thing in most cases. Perhaps the quintessential example - restricted HQ's, units, and releases that are meant to slow down the allied war and delay the allied strength from deployment at the same time the Empire has large land unit availability. This creates the quite artificial (but most exciting) ability to smash 14-17 Empire divisions most at any place in the Pacific and force desperate allied defensive gaming with artificially limited ground forces in 42.
Don't get swayed by the 'masses'. The game is well balanced in that it provides actual and potential capabilities (and the chance for other even greater capabilities). Play her as she is, and she will run true.
Let me know if you have questions on specific HR's.
_____________________________
Andy M
This is my first long term WitP/AE game so I learn as I go.
R&D for the Japanese is great and I never had a problem with it as long as it stays reasonable. I may apologize again for my ignorance that this is a mod game, so my comment of having the A6M8 two years early was of course wrong as the availability date of this version in this mod was far earlier than real life. If you are able to get an aircraft 3-4 months earlier than the set arrival date then I would never have a problem with it (3-4 months is quite an achievement in war), what I would think would be off would be something like two years early like I´ve thought would have happened when you said you get the A6M8 in mid 43 as I was thinking about an availability date of early/mid 45 due to me being unaware of the mod availability dates.
I find the thread very interesting in general as it´s quite a unique one going into detail for the Japanese production, pity it´s not about stock [;)] as I´m only aware of stock so far and haven´t even touched the IJ as I´m still frightened to play transport tycoon in the Pacific. I know, auto convoys have been improved but like with everything else, I tend to do all things myselve so spending another 1000 hours for transport coordination in a full PBEM is too much to me for the moment.
This thread has been interesting and the topics are timeless for a Japanese player. BigRed has done great work to get into so much detail regarding the economy and 'challenges' facing a Japanese player within AE.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
It is October 42. The allies landed at Lunga but are unable to develop the airfield. 32nd Division just landed at Kopang as the KB was retaking Little andaman. Japs maintain air superiority. This chart is a look at empire resources. Feul issue in japan is o the rebound. Sopac and SRA need some supply.
