C'mon, Matrix... how about a WiTP 2?

[fbs]

?

[rtrapasso]

Matrix doesn't create games, they market them...

WITP-AE was made by a group of players who got together and created it. WITP was made by 2x3 Games.

So, you need to create a company, write a game and go to it... if it works, maybe Matrix will market it.

[vonTirpitz]

DaBigBabes might qualify as a good sequel. The mod developers brought a lot into the database and are probably pushing the limits of the game engine by now.

Aside from that, you will probably have to wait for Gary Grigsby to develop the next game (I can't imagine playing any other game that takes up to five years to complete but I'd probably do it again). [:D]

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

DaBigBabes might qualify as a good sequel. The mod developers brought a lot into the database and are probably pushing the limits of the game engine by now.

Aside from that, you will probably have to wait for Gary Grigsby to develop the next game (I can't imagine playing any other game that takes up to five years to complete but I'd probably do it again). [:D]

The Babes team brought a lot to the game. Yes, the OOB is one aspect. But, they brought the split tube sub stuff (had some coding with it as well, not just oob work). They also did some good work with AA guns. I think they're working on doing the same work with CD guns that they did with the AA guns. Tons of stuff with engineers, slowing the pace of the game via less AV on both sides. There's a version that dinks with the industrial side of the game to make it a lot more realistic. I'm sure I'm not mentioning all the stuff that's different from stock. These are just the things I can remember off the top of my head.

VT is absolutely correct that Da Babes is sort of a WITP 2.

[fbs]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

WITP-AE was made by a group of players who got together and created it.

Precisely. If Matrix sold/marketed/supported/assisted/however-you-call-it War Plan Orange and Admiral's Edition, I see no reason why not do the same for a Witp 2/Commodore Edition/DeLuxe/however-you-call-it version with the improvements that players want.

For example, take DaBigBabes + DaLittleBabes + DaMediumBabes + artwork mods + polishing + improvements and have it out. Or do something else; we just can't expect jwilkenson and michalm to support the game forever for free. I'd hate to see the game become a ghost like Steel Panthers.

After all, the game was released almost 2 years ago. Right now the game cost me like... 3 dolars per month? Or something like that. I have no problems paying for upgrades of softwares that I enjoy every couple of years.

[YankeeAirRat]

ORIGINAL: fbs

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

WITP-AE was made by a group of players who got together and created it.

Precisely. If Matrix sold/marketed/supported/assisted/however-you-call-it War Plan Orange and Admiral's Edition, I see no reason why not do the same for a Witp 2/Commodore Edition/DeLuxe/however-you-call-it version with the improvements that players want.

For example, take DaBigBabes + DaLittleBabes + DaMediumBabes + artwork mods + polishing + improvements and have it out. Or do something else; we just can't expect jwilkenson and michalm to support the game forever for free. I'd hate to see the game become a ghost like Steel Panthers.

After all, the game was released almost 2 years ago. Right now the game cost me like... 3 dolars per month? Or something like that. I have no problems paying for upgrades of softwares that I enjoy every couple of years.

The problem becomes a situtation that for all of these mods, how do you define what is "fair" for one mod vs another? Why do some mods get picked over others that get supported by the company? What about hoping that the mod doesn't crash the orginal program? There are all sorts of additional questions. Also as some programmers have a "fair use clause" in thier EULA which basically states that no one but the programmers can make any sort of money off any mods, additional scenarios, changes, etc, etc, etc on the original program. So the question really becomes a situtation of how many people are actually buying, playing and making it worthwhile to support a game? Also, as a recent editorial in the May edition PC Gamer talked about the fact that war games/strategy games like WiTP are really niche products.

[Sredni]

I'd pay again for an updated UI, resizable and multiple windows, the ability to multiselect, ect ect. I think we're all aware that the basic code for witp is pretty dated by this point and we've all seen various posts explaining why this or that desired functionality would be just too much work to recode at this point.

I havn't even heard a hint of a witp 2 though, it doesn't sound like something that's going to happen any time soon if ever.

[castor troy]

Compared to what WITP is, AE already is a WITP 1.99

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I'd pay again for an updated UI, resizable and multiple windows, the ability to multiselect, ect ect. I think we're all aware that the basic code for witp is pretty dated by this point and we've all seen various posts explaining why this or that desired functionality would be just too much work to recode at this point.

I havn't even heard a hint of a witp 2 though, it doesn't sound like something that's going to happen any time soon if ever.

I think it will happen, but not soon.

I suspect Matrix is watching WitE very closely, analyzing price versus volume trends. Only they know the cost side and true volumes.

As you say, to me any WITP2 or AE2 or whatever would need a different team. The AE team did the really hard work of OOB development (through DBB et al) and algorithm refinement. Any follow-on team needs to be composed more of pure Windows developers and AI experts who build on the base of AE and take the game into the modern interface era while perhaps moving away from purely scripted AI routines. I don't doubt that would be a monumental job, but I don't think as hard as what the AE team did.

I think Matrix could credibly charge $100-ish USD for such a game. I have no idea if that would be profitable. However, if it would be, I have no doubt either that Matrix/Slitherine has the wherewithal and industry contacts to assemble a team to get it done. I don't think they would need to wait to be approached. I don't think GG should or would be involved in such an effort. He's great at what he's great at, but what AE needs for the next round doesn't play to his strengths.

The main obstacle (again, I have no info) might be legal. If the tentacles of copyright and other rights for anything related to WITP's base design flows back to 2x3 then the above doesn't work without some creative re-negotiation, possibly in concert with a deal for a WitE2. Perhaps 2x3 would juggle their deal in exchange for a multi-game contract or similar. I have no idea. But if a WITP2 team had to start from bare metal I think the economics of that would be a mighty hill to climb.

[DuckofTindalos]

A new WitP will have to be coded from scratch. No more can be squeezed out of it.

I personally hope that there'll never be another one, but good luck to whichever poor team of suckers wants to take on the aggravation.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

DaBigBabes might qualify as a good sequel. The mod developers brought a lot into the database and are probably pushing the limits of the game engine by now.

Aside from that, you will probably have to wait for Gary Grigsby to develop the next game (I can't imagine playing any other game that takes up to five years to complete but I'd probably do it again). [:D]

The Babes team brought a lot to the game. Yes, the OOB is one aspect. But, they brought the split tube sub stuff (had some coding with it as well, not just oob work). They also did some good work with AA guns. I think they're working on doing the same work with CD guns that they did with the AA guns. Tons of stuff with engineers, slowing the pace of the game via less AV on both sides. There's a version that dinks with the industrial side of the game to make it a lot more realistic. I'm sure I'm not mentioning all the stuff that's different from stock. These are just the things I can remember off the top of my head.

VT is absolutely correct that Da Babes is sort of a WITP 2.

No, he's not.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The main obstacle (again, I have no info) might be legal. If the tentacles of copyright and other rights for anything related to WITP's base design flows back to 2x3 then the above doesn't work without some creative re-negotiation, possibly in concert with a deal for a WitE2. Perhaps 2x3 would juggle their deal in exchange for a multi-game contract or similar. I have no idea. But if a WITP2 team had to start from bare metal I think the economics of that would be a mighty hill to climb.

+1

I think Gary would have to (at a minimum) start any WitP2 effort and not sure that is on his calendar yet. The devs here have stated many times that they can't change the game only enhance the features. I think that speaks to the license that Matrix has from 2x3. Just my opinion ....

[gradenko2k]

Sometimes I consider it a step back that WITP-AE did away with WITP's zone control mechanics. Every now and then I just want to drive carriers around blowing up Japanese task forces.

[DuckofTindalos]

Was not technically possible. We didn't do it because we felt like it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A new WitP will have to be coded from scratch. No more can be squeezed out of it.

The OOB doesn't change, and that is a huge chunk of manhours. Again, I don't know who has rights to the work.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I think Gary would have to (at a minimum) start any WitP2 effort and not sure that is on his calendar yet. The devs here have stated many times that they can't change the game only enhance the features. I think that speaks to the license that Matrix has from 2x3. Just my opinion ....

The little (very little) I know about US intellectual property law suggests to me that any follow-on WITP he probably has rights to and/or a veto over. But I doubt his or 2x3's contracts with Matrix give him ownership over the idea of a WWII PTO strategic-operaitonal game. Name it something else and figure out how different it has to be to pass legal muster. Or, get GG to agree to whatever modifications to the deal need to happen to extend the franchise. WITP is not the same thing it was in whatever year the deal was inked. It has more value now, and 2x3 is due some compensation I'd think. Negotiation is a powerful thing.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A new WitP will have to be coded from scratch. No more can be squeezed out of it.

The OOB doesn't change, and that is a huge chunk of manhours.

Actually, compared to getting a newly-coded game to work, OOB is not "a huge chunk of manhours".

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Actually, compared to getting a newly-coded game to work, OOB is not "a huge chunk of manhours".

I didn't compare it. Objectively, the OOB task would consume a great deal of manhours.

As for how much, if any, of the present algorithm base could be re-used that seems to me a question for the lawyers. Translating the logic into different syntax is not very hard. Coming up with the logic and coefficients is.

With the lessons learned by 2x3 and Henderson I'd estimate that Matrix/Slitherine would staff the project to suit with the proper mix of skills. Since 2x3 got WITP out the door with their limited resources I don't think level of effort would be the constraint.

[rtrapasso]

GG at one point was very vocal about not wanting to get involved with another WITP... he may have changed his mind.

The database is pretty much public knowledge, although i suspect if you pulled it intact you might run into problems, but maybe not...DaBabes database wasn't compiled by a company or even an individual. Things might get tricky legally, but i suspect if someone changed the database (i.e., reorganized it more along historical lines) they could make it fly.

As for recoding the game - i would hope they did... once i win the lottery, i might have a go at such a project. [:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

GG at one point was very vocal about not wanting to get involved with another WITP... he may have changed his mind.

The database is pretty much public knowledge, although i suspect if you pulled it intact you might run into problems, but maybe not...DaBabes database wasn't compiled by a company or even an individual. Things might get tricky legally, but i suspect if someone changed the database (i.e., reorganized it more along historical lines) they could make it fly.

As for recoding the game - i would hope they did... once i win the lottery, i might have a go at such a project. [:D]

Just personal preference, but I'd prefer GG not be involved agian. He has a certain worldview about game design, and we already have his (sorta kinda twice.) Witnessing WitE's teething pains, he especially has trouble, as do lots of designers, at the intersection between historical historicalness and letting the players change history and make their own war. Not including an Allied production system might have been an economic move in the design budget, but it also shows a certain worldview about how to have fun while playing wargames. That's just one example.

As I've said I have no knowledge about the legal status of any of this. It can get deep pretty fast. What I would hope is that all concerned really like making good games as much as they like money, and that Matrix and Co. could find a way to make 2x3 and/or GG whole and secure his blessing to re-use whatever pieces of the WITP work product make sense for a new try. Same with Henderson and whatever deals exist in that realm. Everything I've ever read about GG indicates he's more into the art of design than getting rich, but that said WITP is Matrix's crown jewel, a real franchise now, and there should be enough cake for everybody to get a bite. Having eaten, GG can go forth and make whatever next game makes him happiest, with a bit of eating money to tide him over.