Tokyo Rose was a Hussy! Chez (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[Nemo121]

Use the supply draw.

I've had over 5,000 AV in Changsha and no problems at all getting the supply there to keep them supplied.

You are shipping supply into Rangoon and overland into China aren't you????

[Canoerebel]

2/11/42

It's not often that I get an email from an opponent that says, "Ouch!", so I really enjoy them.

Eastern DEI: Several waves of Allied bombers sortied against what seemed to be a Mini-Mini-KB NE of Batavia (the two main Mini-KBs had pulled back, one NE and the other SE of Soerabaja). A Swordfish put a TT into Shoho early, followed later by two 1,000-pounders from Banshees (yay, they finally accomplished something!) followed by an evening TT or two from Swordfish that finished off the stricken ship. Steve had been playing with fire and it finally burned him. The only downside is that this alerts him to the risks so that he'll be more cautious in the future. Nevertheless, I think the American carriers might find an opportunity to strike Japanese carriers or battleships when they arrive in a few weeks (they're nearing Adelaide to refuel).

Western DEI: With the enemy already pulling carriers back, the Allies can continue running reinforcements into Benkolen and Oosthaven. Still no attack at Singapore.

Burma: The Allies have just vacated Rangoon (Nemo, I was running supply into there until about a week ago). Port Blair has 120 AV - enough to require serious attention from Japan when the time comes.

China: I had some troops forward from Changsha, but I didn't want to risk defeat in detail against what appeared to be a truly massive enemy army. So I pulled the forward echelons back while sending additional troops forward from other bases (Chengte, Kweilin, and Hengyang). I have full supply at the moment, plus 4241 AV and 5.02 forts. It would be truly shocking if the enemy had enough to take this base. I'll have to watch my right flank to make sure nothing happens there, but I think China is okay for now.

Luzon: The enemy tried to attack again - too soon after the prior repulse. The attack came off at 1:4, dropped forts to two, but cost Japan 156 infantry squads and 147 support squads. I'm out of supplies now, and forts dropping, but Clark should still hold for another week or so. Bataan is out of supply but will contribute 100 AV and three forts, so it should hold briefly after Clark falls.

[paullus99]

Ouch is right - sacrificing a small number of obsolete planes for one of Japan's better light carriers, I'd say that's a great exchange on your part. Of course, you are right that this will probably do two things:

Slow him down & make him commit many more assets (which will take time to collect) when he does start moving.

If he does continue to push Southeast, he's going to have one eye over his shoulder - which will continue to work in your favor. His inability to close out the Luzon operation without taking too much time or cost him in disabled ground forces, will work against his near term operations - in both overall morale (his) and need to spend time recuperating his forces.

Any idea where the rest of the KB might be located? You identified Sho & Zhuk not too long ago - seen any sign of the rest? I would expect to see at least two or three heavy carriers make their appearance in the DEI soon enough - though perhaps he may discount his heavier carriers vulnerability against light Dutch AFs.

[John 3rd]

Well done. Even I don't sub-divide the little KB. Nice work.

[FatR]

Oh well. I decided to see what happened here lately, and it seems this game is already nearly decided. The best Japanese can hope for, without Chez totally reevaluating his way of war - and probably even with it - is to take the roughly historical perimeter far, far behind the schedule, which is completely insufficient to mount a successful long-term defense, particularly against an opponent of Canoerebel's level. Palembang is approximately 66% likely to be completely ruined, which will also help to prevent any serious Phase 2 operations.

[Canoerebel]

2/12/42

paulluss99: An xAKL just stumbled across Hiryu, Soryu and Haruna between Noumea and Fiji. I suspect Shokaku and Zuikaku are nearby. I haven't seen Akagi and Kaga, but surely there aren't far away, though I'm not positive since Steve is willing to split his carriers into divisions (more about that in a moment).

Eastern DEI: The Mini-KBs are retiring to Kendari. Kongo is at Kendari.

Western DEI: Reinforcements continue the run in to Sumatra from India.

China: Now that he sees that Changsha is stoutly defended, Steve is reconning Chengte, which is nearly vacant (one big infantry corps). I'm sure he's looking for flanking possibilites. I have more troops on the way to this area, though, and I have the luxury of the inside lines. So I think I can handle any flanking move towards Chengte. I'm more concerned about Kwiling/Liuchow, which are lightly defended.

Carrier Divisions: I think Steve enjoys simulating the real War in the Pacific. If so, he probably tries whenever possible to mimic historic actions/capabilities. If that's true, then the more non-historic his opponent's tactics, the less satisfied he's going to be with the game. This is just a hunch on my part. I can't figure out why else a player would divide carriers into small units and steam around in Indian country not knowing where the enemy carriers are. I tend to play more tailored to what I'm given, which isn't better or worse, but just the way I play, so at some point we may have some head-scratching and "what the hey?" moments. (Actually, we've already had a couple - the Dutch CL/DD raid on Babeldaob chiefly).

[bradfordkay]

"Carrier Divisions: I think Steve enjoys simulating the real War in the Pacific. If so, he probably tries whenever possible to mimic historic actions/capabilities. If that's true, then the more non-historic his opponent's tactics, the less satisfied he's going to be with the game. This is just a hunch on my part. I can't figure out why else a player would divide carriers into small units and steam around in Indian country not knowing where the enemy carriers are. I tend to play more tailored to what I'm given, which isn't better or worse, but just the way I play, so at some point we may have some head-scratching and "what the hey?" moments. (Actually, we've already had a couple - the Dutch CL/DD raid on Babeldaob chiefly). "

I will agree here. It is one of the reasons that he and I have been playing each other for so very long (played CHS through to August '44 when the pilot bug wiped out our rosters, forcing us to start our AE game). I don't think that your style of game is too "fantastic", Dan, but it is a little more free thinking than what he has become used to for the past four years.

As an example of his carrier operations, we just had a battle off Norfolk Island a couple of weeks ago. I saw that CarDiv5 (Shokaku, Zuikaku) were supporting a reinforcement convoy for that base and so I sent in the only carriers I had operating, Enterprise and Wasp (the other three are either getting repaired or upgraded, Hornet was sunk several months ago). My carriers hit CarDiv5 with 1000lbers while still out of range of his Kates in torpedo trim and then hammered the troop convoy at Norfolk Island in the afternoon. I was extremely lucky in that the AKagi and Hiryu were only about 80 nm further away but were unable or unwilling to react to my carriers. I lost a lot of SBDs over his fleet and TBFs in the attacks on the troop convoy (being protected by Hiryu A6Ms), so I ran away the next day. I've replaced my SBDs and TBFs (but lost a good many excellent pilots) and one of my subs claims to have finished off the Shokaku near the Belep Islands, but I don't believe it.

At any rate, he and I have both been willing to use two carriers in a combat group because we know that the other guy does the same as well. When you know that the other guy always keeps the KB intact, you can't play that way - but when you know that he divides his carriers among disparate missions you realize that you can do the same. It's part of the process of feeling out an opponent.

[Cribtop]

Scratch one Flat Top!

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, Brad.

This creates the potential for disagreements, because we may have differing views of how to play the game "right." Not that either side is right or wrong, but rather fundamentally different approaches may create dissatisfaction.

Steve is an easy-going guy who's a real treat to play with. But I can imagine him blanching when he finds out what the Allies have done in eastern Sumatra. Also, I am quite willing to strip the American carriers of aircraft to re-base them in the DEI. Lots of things like that may strike Steve as non-historical and not quite kosher.

On the other hand, I approach it as a vastly complex game with both sides taking what they are dealt and trying to figure out how best to win.

We haven't had any real difficulties thus far, but I'm kinda of worried that Steve prefers to think in the box while I've gone way outside. Let's see what happens.

On a separate note, I'm really enjoying this game. It's so vastly different from the game with Q-Ball. By pushing the envelope and defending forward, the game has taken on a tenseness and challenge-level all its own. And I still don't know if I've done the right things or evaluated things correctly. I've wandered out on a limb a bit and there's a chance Steve could saw it off behind me. But I like the view out here and think the limb is pretty solid.

[paullus99]

Every game is different - in this case, you are trying something that could be viewed as somewhat unconventional, but your job is also not to just roll-over & let the Japanese tear through the DEI without a fight. Historically, the allies did hope they could make a game of it in the DEI - the pace and professionalism of the Japanese advance prevented that, of course.

Your opponent has plenty to play with & should have the resources to push further than history - if he doesn't take advantage of it, it certainly isn't your fault. The game is still in play and is going to be bloody, no matter which way you slice it.

[bradfordkay]

In the case of the combination of Stringbags and A24s, Steve is quite used to seeing that. I have used that combination in the past to great results. In each of our games he has lost at least one CVL (a CVL and CVE in our present game) to that combination during his conquest of the SRA. That's why I posted the "Steve HATES Stringbags!" comment earlier. It looks like his record in that regard is continuing... 

[JohnDillworth]

On a separate note, I'm really enjoying this game. It's so vastly different from the game with Q-Ball. By pushing the envelope and defending forward, the game has taken on a tenseness and challenge-level all its own. And I still don't know if I've done the right things or evaluated things correctly. I've wandered out on a limb a bit and there's a chance Steve could saw it off behind me. But I like the view out here and think the limb is pretty solid.

I wonder if Steve researched your past AAR's and had a subconscious idea that your might do a Sir Robin and not defend forward. Many allied players don't defend forward and based on your last AAR neither do you. I was surprised myself. Funny thing is in your last AAR your were developing a bit of a fascination with Sumatra. I wouldn't want to see the look on his face when that first recon flight comes back.

[paullus99]

Biggest mistake militaries often make - training to fight the last war, instead of preparing for the next one. In this case, it could be that Canoerebel's opponent is assuming this fight will be like the last one - which in this particular case, becomes a mistake of utmost importance to the near-term future of the campaign.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Every game is different - in this case, you are trying something that could be viewed as somewhat unconventional, but your job is also not to just roll-over & let the Japanese tear through the DEI without a fight. Historically, the allies did hope they could make a game of it in the DEI - the pace and professionalism of the Japanese advance prevented that, of course.

Your opponent has plenty to play with & should have the resources to push further than history - if he doesn't take advantage of it, it certainly isn't your fault. The game is still in play and is going to be bloody, no matter which way you slice it.

I do not think anyone could come up with a shred of evidence to suggest the Allies conceded the DEI to Japan. The swiftness and the effectiveness of the Japanese advance dictated the historical results. Knowing the historical result, many Allied players only put up a token reistance rather than risk losing forces needlessly to a lost cause. With that knowledge in hand, many Japan players rush forward with token forces that are poorly supported brushing aside the remnants the Allied player leaves behind. Lately we are seeing more and more Allied players fighting for the DEI or at least conduct a fighting withdraw. A well planned and executed Japanese offensive should still have little trouble rushing the DEI even if there are a few speed bumps; the Allied player only has so much to put in the way of the steamroller. However, when a poorly prepared Japan player goes against a stout Allied defense, you get a battle that looks like this one. It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I do not think anyone could come up with a shred of evidence to suggest the Allies conceded the DEI to Japan. The swiftness and the effectiveness of the Japanese advance dictated the historical results. Knowing the historical result, many Allied players only put up a token reistance rather than risk losing forces needlessly to a lost cause. With that knowledge in hand, many Japan players rush forward with token forces that are poorly supported brushing aside the remnants the Allied player leaves behind. Lately we are seeing more and more Allied players fighting for the DEI or at least conduct a fighting withdraw. A well planned and executed Japanese offensive should still have little trouble rushing the DEI even if there are a few speed bumps; the Allied player only has so much to put in the way of the steamroller. However, when a poorly prepared Japan player goes against a stout Allied defense, you get a battle that looks like this one. It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo.

Aye, it's a matter of how much the Allies can slow down the Empire and how much it can make things cost them. The fewer resources IJ brings the longer it will take and quite possibly the more it will cost. They will get the DEI of course, but a stout defense means either they get it later or they have to start throwing the long ball in the Pacific later.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Biggest mistake militaries often make - training to fight the last war, instead of preparing for the next one.

True, yes. But if you aren't prepared for the last war either then guys wielding clubs and wearing only loin clothes will smash your civilization. [:'(]

[John 3rd]

Vettim is correct that serious, intelligent resistance in the DEI can really serve to throw a wrench into the Japanese Thrust. This becomes even more true when the offensive is attempted on the cheap (as appears here).

I'm willing to wager that Dan's opponent had read his earlier AAR and expected that style to be played. This highly aggressive, risk-taking play shown by CR has been magnificent and certainly caught the Japanese player flatfooted. It is atypical of Dan's recent campaigns and would have seriously thrown me (as a former opponent) for a serious loop...

[Cribtop]

Dan,

IMHO there is significant historical precedent for both sides using CV air groups from land bases that this practice should not be considered ahistorical. The USN did it at Guad (admittedly in some cases planes from damaged CVs). The IJN moved all the planes from very functional Shokaku and Zuikaku and used them at Rabaul and Buna for months.

[Canoerebel]

2/13/42

Eastern DEI: Mini KBs have vanished from sight. Meanwhile, the American carriers have refueld at Adelaide and are steaming west. I hope I didn't scare off all the prey before I could strike a big blow, but methinks Steve will be back in some form or fashion.

Western DEI: The Indian engineers came ashore in good shape at Benkolen and are reporting for duty at Oosthaven. I have more engineers on the way, but some are very distant (enroute to Capetown from USA). Another Indian engineer unit will embark from Madras in a couple of days and is bound for Benkolen. I badly want to get engineers to Lahat and Prabaemolith, but it'll take time. Three Aussie brigades and a cav unit are enroute, though most are quite distant (Note to Nemo: I ultimately took your advice and routed one Aussie bgde to Sumatra rather than Port Blair). An Indian brigade arrives at Madras in four days and will be shipped forward. More BBs (two USN and two RN) are bound for the theater, though it'll take them awhile. I'm certainly contemplating a "savage the invasion" fleet plan that Nemo articulated in his AAR vs. One-Eyed Jacks. If the Allies can really mess up an invasion fleet so that it really impacts on the enemy's ability to proceed with the ground campaign, it would be worth a steep price. So I want my carriers and combat ships ready. Having enough fuel to handle them while awaiting developments will be challenging.

China: Steve is moving units from the Hengyang front north towards the Changsha front. I have the interior lines, so I can meet any such move, though I'm not quite sure exactly what his plan is yet. Chinese fort building at Changsha is really moving fast - already to 5.11.

Answering a Question Belatedly: Somebody asked whether Steve might be inclined to take advantage of the HQ assignment workaround to free up restricted troops. This wasn't part of our House Rules discussion, but I know he won't do it and neither will I.

[bradfordkay]

"It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo. "

I can assure you that this is not the case. While I have not brought the British 18th Division or the AVG into the SRA I have always tried to find places where my NEI troops can stand and make themselves counted as tough fighters. In our CHS game Palembang ended up 80% demolished by the end of the fight, so in our present game I decided not to put so many forces into that location (the western Sumatra forces fought for that oil port up there instead). In retrospect this was a mistake, because the die rolls did not fall in my favor this time and Palembang was captured with no damage! I do wonder how Dan managed to transfer the CD units from Tarakan to Palembang, as I thought that those boys were permanently restricted.

I alway heavily invest in USAAF and RAF forces for the defense of the NEI but his Betties and the KB have managed to decimate my naval forces in the region, though not without cost to the baby KB.