Sun Tzu...

[anarchyintheuk]

I'd still put Tzu fu under the title of enlightened common sense rather than anything particularly mind blowing. Telling me that it is wise to keep an enemy off balance is like my dad telling me to brush my teeth before I put my tie on instead of vice-versa . . . good idea but obvious.

Having said that, it's still a must read.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Actually, the United States military of the 1960s and 70's was heavily influenced by Clausewitz and they got their ass kicked by the adherents of Sun Tzu in SE Asia.

I think that pretty much closes the case.

(Sorry for the off-topic rant, but the statement at the beginning of this thread tweaked me a bit).

they may have been "influenced" by Clausewitz, but they certainly didn't apply his teachings effectively...thus, it may be erroneous to draw the above conclusion...

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouthy is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

Over 3 hours later and no reply from Dobey....even though he was on forum when I posted......Hm.......maybe the European "code duello" model didn't work. Maybe I should adopt the "Code of the west " model, of my recently adopted new home.



DOBEY! I'm calling you out! I double dog dare you! [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.

Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:]

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.

Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:]

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D]

Just remmber this.....I always lie! [:D] But if I tell you I'm lying???/[&:][:D]
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............[:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.

Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:]

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D]

Just remmber this.....I always lie! [:D] But if I tell you I'm lying???/[&:][:D]
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............[:D]

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever. [:'(]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:]

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D]

Just remmber this.....I always lie! [:D] But if I tell you I'm lying???/[&:][:D]
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............[:D]

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever. [:'(]

You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here. [&:]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.

Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:]

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D]

The only contact that I had with that "esteemed group of gentlemen" was when they were trying to drown me, starve me,chase me or in general , do me harm. (Various Navy training and survival schools where those wonderful people were the "instructors" (read sadist,tormentors etc). They may "nerver fight fair". But they also "Lie like a rug!". "Sure. We'll feed you. Yeah the test is easy. We'll help you swim!" (By hitting you in the back of the head with a ^&&**((*&^^%%^&* pole!). NEVER trust a SEAL! EVER![:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve





Just remmber this.....I always lie! [:D] But if I tell you I'm lying???/[&:][:D]
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............[:D]

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever. [:'(]

You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here. [&:]

Sez you. Another 2" this morning...[:(] But, perhaps the warm southern climes of Nebraska ([:D]) are already in a full-throated Spring.

I'd still like to drive down there over a three day weekend or something like that. I'll PM you to get the discussion started...

[Shark7]

Seems to me the biggest thing with Sun Tzu is that he understood strategy, motivation, and tactics, but more importantly the relationship between them.

It takes all three really, strategy without motivated soldiers led by competent tacticians can not win a war, the same can be said of competent leaders and motivated soldiers with a lack of competent strategy.

Also:

"If you know yourself and know your enemy, one hundred battles one hundred victories;
If you know yourself but do not know your enemy, then for every victory you will suffer a loss;
If you do not know yourself and do not know your enemy, you will always be defeated."

The way I read this is simple, you must know your own strengths and weaknesses as well as the enemy's strengths and weaknesses to attain consistent victory. If one or both of these is missing, you will not be able to capably adapt to the changing battlefield. By knowing both, you can exploit the battlefield, by knowing only your own, you can adapt to the enemy and may still be victorious. If you know neither, you will lose to your own incompetence.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever. [:'(]

You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here. [&:]

Sez you. Another 2" this morning...[:(] But, perhaps the warm southern climes of Nebraska ([:D]) are already in a full-throated Spring.

I'd still like to drive down there over a three day weekend or something like that. I'll PM you to get the discussion started...

Sounds good.

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

[Shellshock]

In their book Shattered Sword, authors Parshall and Tully seem to infer that Sun Tzu's tactics may have been Yamamoto's undoing at the battle of Midway. Japanese naval strategy was influenced from it's very inception by Oriental philosophies on the conduct of war, which emphasized the value of deception and indirect approaches. However, at Midway, the Japanese encountered a problem where subtlety was a dangerous luxury. If ever a situation demanded brute concentration of force, Midway was it. By spreading the Japanese fleet over half the Pacific, it just invited defeat in detail, especially when Yamamoto's mail was being read by Nimitz.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

In their book Shattered Sword, authors Parshall and Tully seem to infer that Sun Tzu's tactics may have been Yamamoto's undoing at the battle of Midway. Japanese naval strategy was influenced from it's very inception by Oriental philosophies on the conduct of war, which emphasized the value of deception and indirect approaches. However, at Midway, the Japanese encountered a problem where subtlety was a dangerous luxury. If ever a situation demanded brute concentration of force, Midway was it. By spreading the Japanese fleet over half the Pacific, it just invited defeat in detail, especially when Yamamoto's mail was being read by Nimitz.

The undoing of the Japanese at Midway may have been caused by a faulty and incomplete interpretation
of Sun Tzu.

Sun Tzu does nothing else than provide a more or less complete toolbox, it is still up to the men
in command to select the apropriate tools for a specific situation.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve




I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

What an interesting way to start a PBEM, gentlemen.
I expect to see an AAR with a title like: The Art Of War (no Clausewitz please) [:D]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey




Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

What an interesting way to start a PBEM, gentlemen.
I expect to see an AAR with a title like: The Art Of War (no Clausewitz please) [:D]

East Wind versus Western Gas?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve




I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D]

Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now?

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Dobey




Hi Steve,

I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day.
I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game.

I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now?

As a PBEM? Once or twice. [:D]