New Heroes of Stalingrad Screens

[helm123456789]

Idiot or maniac. Interesting question and the answer depends on who you ask and the time of day. Wife tends to call me both and I'll answer to both as well.

Really though brother just take a break from the forum. I go away for weeks and just take a peek in to see where things are at. I once followed the development of I believe Combat Leader the way your following this titles development. Matrix ended up canceling Combat Leader and I was totally upset. Then I had a big reality check hit me square dead in the face when my father passed away a few days after that. At that point I realized hell I'm all upset over a darn game. Life is too damn short to let things like this get to you.

Go grab a six pack of cold ones and think of something else for a while. Pop into the forums a couple of weeks from now to see if anything has happened then repeat the process.

[Arctic Blast]

Had money changed hands, I would agree there was some sort of obligation, but that isn't the case. A company isn't under any obligation to produce a game that isn't being sold, pre-sold or anything of the like. It has absolutely nothing to do with honour or ethics or anything else you want to throw out here, it's just business. Again, I'd be disappointed if this game didn't come to fruition (having just bought the Band of Heroes board game, I quite like the LnL system), but that's the extent of it.

I mean, where does this 'obligation' of yours end, Gunhawk? If it got to the point that Mark realized the game would likely lose money, based on realistic expectations for sales vs. development costs, is he still 'obligated' to release it in your eyes? What if his lead developer walks away from the project...still 'obligated'? Were Matrix Games 'obligated' to release Combat Leader?

[Gunhawk]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Had money changed hands, I would agree there was some sort of obligation, but that isn't the case. A company isn't under any obligation to produce a game that isn't being sold, pre-sold or anything of the like. It has absolutely nothing to do with honour or ethics or anything else you want to throw out here, it's just business. Again, I'd be disappointed if this game didn't come to fruition (having just bought the Band of Heroes board game, I quite like the LnL system), but that's the extent of it.

I mean, where does this 'obligation' of yours end, Gunhawk? If it got to the point that Mark realized the game would likely lose money, based on realistic expectations for sales vs. development costs, is he still 'obligated' to release it in your eyes? What if his lead developer walks away from the project...still 'obligated'? Were Matrix Games 'obligated' to release Combat Leader?

A developer walks away, you hire another developer. If he's going to lose money on the project and needs to dump it he should be honest about it and say so. That doesn't appear to be the case though. Walker is under no *legal* obligation. That's true. A moral obligation is always debatable. It depends on a person's standards. I showed you the obvious connections between ethics and obligations. I have a friend that owns a small store. It's a losing proposition, but she won't close the doors because she doesn't want to put her staff out of work. I like to think that people have the same professional standards that I had when I was an engineer. I haven't heard Walker say that he doesn't owe us a game. I wish he'd put his cards on the table and say exactly that. The reaction would be very interesting.

[undercovergeek]

i think for the sake of further discussion Gunhawk you should refer to the fact that you think Mark Walker owes YOU a game - i dont want to be lumped in with the 'owes US a game' - he certainly doesnt owe me a game, and i think your arguement would weigh much heavier and everybody could see exactly your point of view if in any future posts you typed 'WALKER OWES ME A GAME' - that should highlight what kind of person you are perfectly and allow everyone to debate it without feeling drawn into the circle of semantics youve created to imply a businessman/shop owes you something that they didnt sell you or promise you.

From my point of view Peter Jackson owes me a Hobbit film, Ferrari owe me the 450s they never completed, NASA owe me those damn Beagle pictures that never came, and how dare David Cameron promise me fair elections, better immigration controls - GODDAMIT IM OWED LESS IMMIGRANTS, WHERE ARE MY IMMIGRATION CONTROLS!!!!!!!!!

oh thats right, you lied, my primary school teacher told me people never tell lies so that must still be true - ethics, morals and code in business Gunhawk? dont make me laugh, youre not that naive - good luck to you and your friend with the shop - the last 2 angels of the lord left on the earth

[Gunhawk]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i think for the sake of further discussion Gunhawk you should refer to the fact that you think Mark Walker owes YOU a game - i dont want to be lumped in with the 'owes US a game' - he certainly doesnt owe me a game, and i think your arguement would weigh much heavier and everybody could see exactly your point of view if in any future posts you typed 'WALKER OWES ME A GAME' - that should highlight what kind of person you are perfectly and allow everyone to debate it without feeling drawn into the circle of semantics youve created to imply a businessman/shop owes you something that they didnt sell you or promise you.

From my point of view Peter Jackson owes me a Hobbit film, Ferrari owe me the 450s they never completed, NASA owe me those damn Beagle pictures that never came, and how dare David Cameron promise me fair elections, better immigration controls - GODDAMIT IM OWED LESS IMMIGRANTS, WHERE ARE MY IMMIGRATION CONTROLS!!!!!!!!!

oh thats right, you lied, my primary school teacher told me people never tell lies so that must still be true - ethics, morals and code in business Gunhawk? dont make me laugh, youre not that naive - good luck to you and your friend with the shop - the last 2 angels of the lord left on the earth

I can't say that he owes *me* a game as that would make my position highly subjective and personal, while i'm trying to be as objective as I can. My post connecting ethics and morals to business standards is as objective as I could make it using dictionary definitions, not my own beliefs. So if you think that these objective conclusions are naive you can argue with Noah Webster, not me.

However, here's one of my beliefs that applies. "A man's word is his bond".

The idea that I'm one of the last angels left on earth just gave God and I a good laugh. (-:

Screw Ferrari. If they're not going to deliver, buy a better car. The new Shelby Mustang is high on my list of unatainable rides, but i'm American so when I think "racing" I think street rod. My current "short" is a Mustang GT, so I don't now what I'm gonna do when the price of gas goes to four thousand dollars a gallon anyway. (-:

Good talking to you Geek. I like man with a sense of humor.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Gunhawk

I can't say that he owes *me* a game as that would make my position highly subjective and personal, while i'm trying to be as objective as I can.

I'm just a lurker here but I find the discussion interesting from a basic positions stand point. How can you decide that you can't have your own POV belong to you? Because it would be subjective and personal, which it is both.

The reverse side of that position is that you have taken on the position of spokes person for everybody else who now seem to be trying to distance themselves from the personal position you've taken. Which you say you can't support because it would make your comments both subjective and personal. Which they are.

I've talked with Mark before on occasion and I get the same feeling of commitment to his business that others do. He's trying his best to run his business. That may or may not include finishing up this computer game. I hope it does because he, like the rest of us, could use the money.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Gunhawk]

>>I'm just a lurker here but I find the discussion interesting from a basic positions stand point. How can you decide that you can't have your own POV belong to you? Because it would be subjective and personal, which it is both.<<

I do have a point of view and I've expressed it many times, but in this case I was asked directly how I came to the conclusion that "Walker owes *us* a game". I couldn't express my *own* point of view to say that Walker owes *us* a game as that would be personal and subjective and would pertin only to *me*, so instead I used common definitions from on-line dictionaries to define Walkers obligation to *us*, not me. So, if you have a problem with those definitions your agrument is not with me, it's with Websters Dictionary. You do realize that those were dictionary definitions and not mine, right?

>>The reverse side of that position is that you have taken on the position of spokes person for everybody else who now seem to be trying to distance themselves from the personal position you've taken. Which you say you can't support because it would make your comments both subjective and personal. Which they are.<<

I don't consider myself a "spokesperson" for anyone. This discussion has become more of a philosophical debate about obligation than an argument about a game, which is OK with me, as I didn't much care for the resulting mindless flaming which gets us nowhere. But if we look at how obligation is defined we can discuss the situation intelligently.

[helm123456789]

Had to pop in and see how my friend Gun is doing and if Mark has got the restraining order in place....Just pulling your tail Gun.

Just tell me you had a few of them beers and didn't read the forum for a while.

[harrmonica]

i'm not going to touch on whether we are 'owed' a game. i will say that people that are telling gunhawk to cool it, have not followed the history of this game/forum closely. a little sifting through the back pages would tell you all you need to know. i don't have a problem with a game taking eons to be released, i do have a problem with giving vague to totally inaccurate timelines for release, having one of the developers tell folks to all but put a sock in it about when the game was coming out (look it up) and then going for REALLY long stretches with no updates/info at all. if there is anything we are owed, it is some better, more consistent communication and quite frankly a sense of appreciation that people are still following this game at all. i don't know gunhawk and can't say that i always agree with his approach, but i can't blame him for any frustration on his part. as a potential customer/fan of the product, he has every right to be disgruntled by the way the marketing/public relations aspect of this game has been handled. disastrous to say the least. i sympathize with the small budget/indie developer thing, but if you have a look at some of the other small/indie developers on these forums (won't name names), they seem to have a clearer sense and appreciation of their customer base. in that respect, i can't give LnL a pass.

[helm123456789]

@harrmonica&nbsp; what we also have to remember here is the LnL isn't the job that pay's Mark's mortgage and other bills and most likely never will.&nbsp; Some of those other indie developers concentrate solely on the PC game.&nbsp; It's his board games that are covering his expenses and allowing him to do this.&nbsp; This a is a totally new endeavor for him.&nbsp; It will hopefully be his first of many titles that he can port over to the PC.

The put a sock in it thing I have no idea of and don't really care.&nbsp; I see both sides of the story here.&nbsp; A developer not giving out all the information the customer would like as well as the customer that always screaming when is it going to be ready for me.&nbsp; If he gave a date and missed that date some would be screaming for his head.

I think I'm beginning to understand why the war gaming developer crowd is so small and such a niche.&nbsp; I wouldn't want the headaches.

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: helm123456789

...
I think I'm beginning to understand why the war gaming developer crowd is so small and such a niche.  I wouldn't want the headaches.

Bingo!

[Ken7]

I do hope this game is released. As per my guess at 10% to be released.. Well Im upping it to mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 15%.

[Gunhawk]

>>A developer not giving out all the information the customer would like as well as the customer that always screaming when is it going to be ready for me.<<

I resent that. All of my points have been presented logically and reasonably and in one case satirically, but there was never any "screaming" involved. Asking when a game is going to be published is typical for any game in any forum. The longer it takes for a game to be releaed, the more times the question will be asked. That's just the math of it. I've never asked when the game is going to be ready for *me*. I've only asked what *year* it was going to be released. It looks like the only way that some of you guys can debate the situation is to exaggerate, misrepresent or misquote what I say and then try to patronize me for it, and that's pretty lame.

[markhwalker]

[markhwalker]

German hero assaults a T-70, which pops the assault graphic. Note also the gold star on the T-70...this means it's a campaign unit.

[Gunhawk]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

German hero assaults a T-70, which pops the assault graphic. Note also the gold star on the T-70...this means it's a campaign unit.

I don't see a T-70. I see Russian soldiers assaulting a German Mark III. Is the T-70 hidden by the "assault graphic"? Is the same "assault graphic" used for either side's close asault?

[markhwalker]

The T-70 is on the right in the unit display panel. No, there is also a pic showing a T-34...but you are right...the above is in error...it should be showing the T-34. Here is that art...not in game, obviously.

[Redmarkus5]

I like it. A few images need to be moved around somewhere, but who cares? That's software development in progress.

The game looks excellent and as long as the AI logic holds up, I will be a proud owner when it comes out.

[markhwalker]

How would you suggest we move the images. I'm always open to suggestions.

[Ken7]

It would bother me more if no one was making any kind of comment at all.