new things about 1.04.10 patch beta

[PeeDeeAitch]

I always use the divisions at (and next to) Memel.

[randallw]

ORIGINAL: runyan99

ORIGINAL: randallw

As said before, the chance of interdiction partially depends on detection level; ground units being railed to the front may not even be detected by the enemy, if they begin way in the rear, and may not be detected until they are adjacent to the enemy ( after detraining and moving of course ).

Of course, in real life the above is exactly what does NOT happen when moving by rail against an enemy with air superiority. The trains get spotted by Jabos and shot up in route.

It needs addressed.

The game is turn based, which creates side effects. As one side takes it's turn the other side's recon aircraft are not flying, so real life spotting rules don't quite apply here.

[Rafo35]

As far as air interdiction goes, one should not confuse 1944 around Normandy and the east front in 41. To begin with, the Luftwaffe only had a few dozens of fighters bombers and the other kinds of planes had something else to do. Interdicting train traffic on a large scale was something of the future (and quite localised).

[carnifex]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

at least the 4000 historical kills the first turn

This is not historical, but still possible.

I'm relying on Christer Bergstrom and "Barbarossa - The Air Battle: July-December 1941" where the Russian historian Viktor Kulikov claims close to 4000 machines destroyed in the first three days.

What number of airframes do you think the Lufwaffe destroyed in the first week?

[Helpless]

There are a lot of different numbers available with different level of precision.

For example most suffered Western MD/Front losses from airfield airstrikes:
22 June - 528,
23 - 63
24-30 - 97
(ЦАМО РФ, ф.208, оп. 2589, д.91, л.102).

~600 planes in first 3 days. If all other fronts would suffer the same amount of losses from airfield attacks you still won't have 4K.

Of cause total losses were still horrific, but most of them were due to the airfield attacks only on June 22.

I found such numbers from various sources of total air Soviet aircraft losses in June 1941:

NW - 921 4 days
WF - 538+623=1100 22-30 9 days
SW - 918 22-30 9 days
S - 354 22-30 9 days

~3300 for all active fronts in 4-9 days.

Again, most of the losses happened on June 22 ~1160 machines out of which 800 were destroyed on the airfields.

Now it is possible to make 6K on turn 1 (4 days) just with bombing airfields.

[Mehring]

Interesting statistics. I've found that in 1.03, 5500+ aircraft are easily destroyable playing axis. Playing the other side, however, and losing only 3-4000 planes I find that by spending a bit of time and effort (an improved UI could greatly reduce the necessary time), within a few months the Russian airforce can be molded into a very effective force capable of achieving air superiority in any sector of its choice, probably far more effective than it was historically.

The basic tactic I've used is to concentrate force and repeatedly bomb Axis fighter fields until nothing more is fit to fly. The escorts get mangled, sure, but the bombers get through and you only need 40-60 bombers to get through 2 or 3 times and the field's a mess and subsequent waves of bombers may not even need escorts.

Counter tactics may include dispersing the fighters among many bases, but I've not been stopped yet. With so many Russian aircraft, more it seems with the new patch, surely the effectiveness of those aircraft needs reducing? I'm curious to see how the new airstrike fragmentation will impact on this.

[heliodorus04]

From my Soviet GC perspective regarding Aircraft - you don't need to fly so many missions and get the 5K figure, I don't think.
Kill the SB2s, and all the Mig-3s, Yakks, and Laggs that you can get your cannons on.  Then prioritize any I-16s.  Last, go for IL-2s, IL-4s and other bombers.

Every biplane you kill is actually doing me a favor, at least in a GC (different for scenarios where you get points for any AC kills).

[Mehring]

I do a lot of damage with biplanes, don't mock them, and the IL4 is an awesome bomber. Destroy the 'crap' units and you also damage experience and morale, making them ineffective combat units for longer. The Germans need to destroy the whole lot in my view.

[heliodorus04]

The IL-4 is, in my view, mostly useful for partisan resupply, where its range can be used from safe airbases far from the line.  Problem is you'll get very little escort, and your IL-4s get torn up.  I rotate a lot of the DB-3Bs and a couple other medium level-bombers on VVS bases too, but mostly it's what IL-4s do.  And I fly divisional resupply with them from time to time.  They just get shot to hell so easily by any interceptor.  Thus, the low priority for the German.  The German mainly needs to focus on the aircraft that can harm HIM early, so any of the good Soviet Fighter-Bombers (I-16, Mig-3, Yakk, Lagg) and the bombers that can defend themselves well (SB-2s first, IL-2s second, etc.).

Bi-planes are actually quite good in and around Leningrad, and I think that's a good spot for them.  But they're never going to do 'well' against Bf-109Fs and I'd rather hold on to the well-trained pilots (the bi-planes do have good experience and morale) than risk them getting shot down to far superior aircraft.

One of the odd things in my GC'41 is how long it's taking units in NR to repair aircraft.  The larger air units by size (40+ aircraft) are taking forever to repair/replace.  And that's a fair number of IL-4s among that set.

Having played the German side, I just don't see the bi-planes as particularly useful against anything but Romanian and Finnish air forces, and while that's useful, you have far more bi-planes than you need to fight those groups. 

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

There are a lot of different numbers available with different level of precision.

For example most suffered Western MD/Front losses from airfield airstrikes:
22 June - 528,
23 - 63
24-30 - 97
(ÖÀÌÎ ÐÔ, ô.208, îï. 2589, ä.91, ë.102).

~600 planes in first 3 days. If all other fronts would suffer the same amount of losses from airfield attacks you still won't have 4K.

Of cause total losses were still horrific, but most of them were due to the airfield attacks only on June 22.

I found such numbers from various sources of total air Soviet aircraft losses in June 1941:

NW - 921 4 days
WF - 538+623=1100 22-30 9 days
SW - 918 22-30 9 days
S - 354 22-30 9 days

~3300 for all active fronts in 4-9 days.

Again, most of the losses happened on June 22 ~1160 machines out of which 800 were destroyed on the airfields.

Now it is possible to make 6K on turn 1 (4 days) just with bombing airfields.

There are indeed numerous numbers from a variety of sources.

More from Glantz. These are losses he cites for the Western Military District\Western Front for the first 18-day of Barbarossa. From “Barbarossa Derailed”, Pages 32 & 33:

In eighteen days of combat, Bock’s Army Group Center advanced 600 kilometers to the approaches to the western Dvina and Dnepr Rivers, occupied all Belorussia, and inflicted 417,790 casulties on the Western Front, including 341,073 soldiers killed, captured, or missing. In addition, the Western Front lost 4,799 tanks, many of which simply ran of of fuel, 9,427 guns and mortars, and 1,777 combat aircraft, most of these destroyed at their airfields on the ground. In essence, at least along the Western Strategic axis, Army Group Centers’s powerful juggernaut fulfilled the mission assigned to it by the Barbarossa Plan by utterly shattering and destroying much of the Red Army’s first strategic echelon west of the Divina and Dnepr Rivers. In accordance with Plan Barbarossa’s preeminent assumption, Hitler and most of the German High Command considered the war was won.

Glantz Footnotes this with:

41: Zolotarev, VOV 147. During this period, 24 Divisions of Pavlov’s initial force of 44 Divisions perished entirely, and the other 20 lost from 30 to 90 percent of their personnel.

I assume by “perished entirely”, Zolotarev is mistranslated, and that “entirely perished” refers to everyone in these formations were either captured, missing, wounded, or KIA. I can’t tell from the footnote if Zolotarev is the source for the aircraft destroyed figure for the Western Front during it’s first 18-days of combat.

[marty_01]

This is from the Official German History of WWII.

H. Boog, J. Förster, J. Hoffmann, E. Klink, et al, “Germany and the Second World War: Volume IV: The Attack on the Soviet Union” Pages 764 and 765. Oxford University Press, 1999


http://img163.imageshack.us/i/germanyan ... dworl.jpg/

[Helpless]

Actually those numbers really matching those reported by Soviet Fronts. The difference is in the planes destroyed on the airfields, because Soviet were reporting only combat planes, while Germans counting everything which was hit, including training airframes or old written off equipment (we don't have them in the game).

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

The IL-4 is, in my view, mostly useful for partisan resupply, where its range can be used from safe airbases far from the line.  Problem is you'll get very little escort, and your IL-4s get torn up.  I rotate a lot of the DB-3Bs and a couple other medium level-bombers on VVS bases too, but mostly it's what IL-4s do.  And I fly divisional resupply with them from time to time.  They just get shot to hell so easily by any interceptor.  Thus, the low priority for the German.  The German mainly needs to focus on the aircraft that can harm HIM early, so any of the good Soviet Fighter-Bombers (I-16, Mig-3, Yakk, Lagg) and the bombers that can defend themselves well (SB-2s first, IL-2s second, etc.).

Bi-planes are actually quite good in and around Leningrad, and I think that's a good spot for them.  But they're never going to do 'well' against Bf-109Fs and I'd rather hold on to the well-trained pilots (the bi-planes do have good experience and morale) than risk them getting shot down to far superior aircraft.

One of the odd things in my GC'41 is how long it's taking units in NR to repair aircraft.  The larger air units by size (40+ aircraft) are taking forever to repair/replace.  And that's a fair number of IL-4s among that set.

Having played the German side, I just don't see the bi-planes as particularly useful against anything but Romanian and Finnish air forces, and while that's useful, you have far more bi-planes than you need to fight those groups. 

Well, each to their own, but proof of the pudding is in the eating. In my three PBEMs as Russians, I've devastated the Luftwaffe by fall 1941. You're not going to destroy the Luftwaffe by supplying partisans (which, incidentally, don't even seem to benefit from the supply missions anyway).

From My latest PBEM at turn 15 against easily my most able opponent-

[Mehring]

All but a handfull of those fighters were destroyed on the ground. And the bombers were escorted by clouds of biplane escorts, among other planes. There are 50+ SB-2 regiments vs 40 IL$, but look who's doing the damage. Proportionately it's the IL4s and they don't get particularly chewed because the escorts are getting chewed in their place-

[Mehring]

....which leaves a highly favourable corelation of forces in the air war-

[Speedysteve]

Mehring,

Interested in hearing your thoughts on this:

I assume you've 'decimated' the LW by predominant AF attacks? Have you 'simply' mass attacked them from the game start and just gradually worn them down with numbers?

As for partisan re-supply. It works just fine in this latest version after a few changes Pav implemented after i noticed a few things during testing. They should now consist of 6-15 plane raids that also drop nkvd squads which motivate the Partisans to do 'stuff'. Let me know if you're not finding this!

[heliodorus04]

Hey Mehring, your data have me convinced:  I'm doin' it wrong...
At least it's only turn 10.

I do believe there was a bug in the old version about Partisans not really working right.  I think.  I do think I'm focusing too much on them.

[Speedysteve]

Partisans were not working as intended before. They are a lot better now

[Speedysteve]

They're also worth investing in. To give you an example in my last turn thy disrupted about 15 hexes worth of rail in about 5 different areas causing chaos to supply links to the east coupled with mud! Perfect.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Mehring,

Interested in hearing your thoughts on this:

I assume you've 'decimated' the LW by predominant AF attacks? Have you 'simply' mass attacked them from the game start and just gradually worn them down with numbers?

As for partisan re-supply. It works just fine in this latest version after a few changes Pav implemented after i noticed a few things during testing. They should now consist of 6-15 plane raids that also drop nkvd squads which motivate the Partisans to do 'stuff'. Let me know if you're not finding this!

Yes, airfield attacks all the way. Clearly even MiGs and LaGGs don't stand a chance in the air vs even Emils, let alone against Friedrich types. Escorts can only distract the interceptors so the bombers get through and I'm not sure if they do this too well.

When the attacks start depends upon how determinedly the Luftwaffe has attacked previously. I've started with a filter for Russian air units, putting fighters in the frontline when their experience reaches 50 and bombers at 45, both with minimum 50 morale. In the absence of more refined settings, that works ok.

My current game I was a good few turns into the game before I could start to attrite his airforce, Previously I'd been able to start earlier. Either way, once the Russian starts these tactics the german has little time to react before he loses his air superiority on one front after another.