102nd Philippine Army Division

[treespider]

Just did a little research - in my mod the 102nd Philippine Army Division is scheduled to arrive in Cagayan on Jan 1, 1942.... I believe it is the same for DBB and likely stock as well.

Problem is the 102nd is essentially already on the map At-Start. Per "The Fall of the Philippines" page 516 the 102nd consisted of the 61st and 81st Field Artillery equipped as infantry and the 103rd Infantry Regiment. Both mods have the 103rd Inf Regt starting at Butuan and assigned as a sub unit of the 101st Division. Both mods then also have the 102nd Division arriving in addition to and separate from the sub-units...essentially tripling or more the Allied force on Mndanao..

The better solution would be to have the 103rd Inf Regt combine with a smallish Infantry unit that would appear on Jan 1, 42 to form the 102nd PA Inf Division.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Just did a little research - in my mod the 102nd Philippine Army Division is scheduled to arrive in Cagayan on Jan 1, 1942.... I believe it is the same for DBB and likely stock as well.

Problem is the 102nd is essentially already on the map At-Start. Per "The Fall of the Philippines" page 516 the 102nd consisted of the 61st and 81st Field Artillery equipped as infantry and the 103rd Infantry Regiment. Both mods have the 103rd Inf Regt starting at Butuan and assigned as a sub unit of the 101st Division. Both mods then also have the 102nd Division arriving in addition to and separate from the sub-units...essentially tripling or more the Allied force on Mndanao..

The better solution would be to have the 103rd Inf Regt combine with a smallish Infantry unit that would appear on Jan 1, 42 to form the 102nd PA Inf Division.

A good point, although the 102nd also included the two companies of the 43rd PS and a few Constabulary units. And there was a 104th Regiment but it's detials are not in my Saturday-morning brain. There were also additonal provisional units attached to the 101st Division but I do not have them handy.

Basically, the few extra months before invasion in Mindanao and the Visayas led to a number of additional units being formed. Constabulary batallions in Surigao, Angusan (spell?), on Cebu (a military police regiment) and Panay. Extra militia regiments: 64th, 65th, 84th, 104th (only one on Mindanao), plus lots of battalion and company sized units. Lots of units. not so much detail.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: treespider

Just did a little research - in my mod the 102nd Philippine Army Division is scheduled to arrive in Cagayan on Jan 1, 1942.... I believe it is the same for DBB and likely stock as well.

Problem is the 102nd is essentially already on the map At-Start. Per "The Fall of the Philippines" page 516 the 102nd consisted of the 61st and 81st Field Artillery equipped as infantry and the 103rd Infantry Regiment. Both mods have the 103rd Inf Regt starting at Butuan and assigned as a sub unit of the 101st Division. Both mods then also have the 102nd Division arriving in addition to and separate from the sub-units...essentially tripling or more the Allied force on Mndanao..

The better solution would be to have the 103rd Inf Regt combine with a smallish Infantry unit that would appear on Jan 1, 42 to form the 102nd PA Inf Division.

A good point, although the 102nd also included the two companies of the 43rd PS and a few Constabulary units. And there was a 104th Regiment but it's detials are not in my Saturday-morning brain. There were also additonal provisional units attached to the 101st Division but I do not have them handy.

Basically, the few extra months before invasion in Mindanao and the Visayas led to a number of additional units being formed. Constabulary batallions in Surigao, Angusan (spell?), on Cebu (a military police regiment) and Panay. Extra militia regiments: 64th, 65th, 84th, 104th (only one on Mindanao), plus lots of battalion and company sized units. Lots of units. not so much detail.

Started looking into it further...I agree the 104th Infantry is missing, as well as the 64th and 65th Provisional Regt's in Panay.

Due to how the code works vis-a-vis a Division is more effective than three Regiments I think I am going to cobble together and represent the missing regiments and eliminate the Divisions.

[treespider]

Here is my plan -

Southern Philippines get some new units but lose some of the divisional structure until later.

Adds:
-104th PA Inf Regt - Arrive - Dec 8, 42 Cagayan - Co. Strength -Needs to Build Out
-64th Prov PA Inf Regt - Arrive - Jan 1 42 - Panay - Co. Strength - needs to Build Out
-65th Prov PA Inf Regt - Arrive - Jan 1 42 - Panay - Co. Strength - needs to Build Out
-61st PA Regt - At-Start - Panay - only attached (not static) to USAFFE able to be bought out - historically transferred to Mindanao - will give 75 prep Cagayan
-62nd PA Regt - At Start - Panay - only attached (not static) to USAFFE able to be bought out - historically transferred to Mindanao - will give 75 prep Cagayan
-Panay Constab Bn - Panay
-82nd PA Inf Regt - Cebu
-83rd PA Inf Regt - Cebu
-Cebu Constab. Regt - Cebu
-63rd PA Inf Regt - Panay
-84th Prov PA Inf Regt - Arrive 1/1/42 - Cagayan - Co. Strength
-43rd PS Inf Det - Start Zamboanga
-I/93rd, II/93rd PA Inf regt - At-Start - Tacloban
-III/93rd PA Inf Regt - At Start - Tagbilaran
-61st PA Field Art. - No artillery assigned - BN Strength Inf instead
-81st PA Field Art. - No artillery assigned - BN strength Inf instead
-101st PA Field Art. - No artillery assigned - BN strength Inf instead.
-61st PA Sig Unit - Arrive Jun 1 42 - Panay - Allows 61st Division to form
-81st PA Sig Unit - Arrive Jun 1 42 - Cebu - Allows 81st Division to form
-101st PA Sig Unit - Arrive Jun 1 42 - Cagayan - Allows 101st Division to form

Until divisions form the Southern Philippines will only have 8-2.95" howitzers for artillery

Eliminate:
- 93rd PA Inf Regt - replaced with Inf Bn
- 102nd PA Inf Division

[Don Bowen]

If you want to get really, really precise.

Form the 61st, 81st, and 101st Artillery Regiments and then divide each one.

61st into two sub units - one on Panay with no artillery and a second at Manila with the artillery pieces.

Same for 81st.

Almost same for 101st except there were four 2.95in guns on Mindanao as of December 7th.

Historically, the four guns on Mindanao were for training. Artillery for the three regiments was sent from Manila aboard the SS Corregidor but the ship struck a mine and all was lost (along with a lot of lives). 71st and 91st regiments were to be equipped on Luzon.

Artillery for the Visayan/Mindanao force was generally the left overs after the Luzon units were equipped. It included a dozen ex-naval 3-inch guns.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


If you want to get really, really precise.

Form the 61st, 81st, and 101st Artillery Regiments and then divide each one.

61st into two sub units - one on Panay with no artillery and a second at Manila with the artillery pieces.

Same for 81st.

Almost same for 101st except there were four 2.95in guns on Mindanao as of December 7th.

Historically, the four guns on Mindanao were for training. Artillery for the three regiments was sent from Manila aboard the SS Corregidor but the ship struck a mine and all was lost (along with a lot of lives). 71st and 91st regiments were to be equipped on Luzon.

Artillery for the Visayan/Mindanao force was generally the left overs after the Luzon units were equipped. It included a dozen ex-naval 3-inch guns.

I like that idea...

[inqistor]

If you already tinkering with Philippines, what about their starting positions? Quite a few bases are completely empty, and ready for Japanese airborne taking (with good airfields, which is the biggest problem).

Were they really THAT concentrated?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
If you want to get really, really precise.

Form the 61st, 81st, and 101st Artillery Regiments and then divide each one.

61st into two sub units - one on Panay with no artillery and a second at Manila with the artillery pieces.

Same for 81st.

Almost same for 101st except there were four 2.95in guns on Mindanao as of December 7th.

Historically, the four guns on Mindanao were for training. Artillery for the three regiments was sent from Manila aboard the SS Corregidor but the ship struck a mine and all was lost (along with a lot of lives). 71st and 91st regiments were to be equipped on Luzon.

Artillery for the Visayan/Mindanao force was generally the left overs after the Luzon units were equipped. It included a dozen ex-naval 3-inch guns.

Interesting about the ex-naval guns. Where were these little puppies?

Looking at my old stuff, Sharp reports he has '0' artillery in Mindanao-Vasayas as of Dec. 7, and got two firing batteries (8 guns) of 2.95s from Manila on the 12th. And that was all she wrote. Apparently, 101st FAPA got one battery (lost 3 at Davao on the 21st) and 81st FAPA got the other. The remaining 5 guns were organized into two independent firing detachments with personnel from 81st FAPA. The remainder of 81st FAPA (reinforced to about 1,000 with constabulary) and all of 61st FAPA fought as infantry.

[Don Bowen]

Your data is probably more precise than mine, and boy would I like to see it!

[JWE]

I will send you everything I got; with comments and circles and arrows on the back showing how it is evidence against us.[;)]

Looking at the number of artillery pieces available to the PA as of opening day.
48x 75mm (M1897 A2, 2.95 ‘pack’), Sept 30, ‘41
40x (more) 75mm (M1897 A2/A4, 2.95 ‘pack’, Nov 16, ‘41
48x (more) 75mm (M1916/17), Nov 21, ‘41
136 artillery pieces, as of Dec 7, ’41 (TAG, AG-400 Dec 8, ’41, from CofS USAFFE). Mark Bolens did the arty OOBs for Leo and cited 132 pieces (84x 75s, 48x 2.95s). The missing 4 were cited as on Mindanao with 1/101st FAPA. Since 1/101st got a battery of the Manila guns on Dec 17 (according to Sharp), I’m not sure whether they should be around on opening day. Can’t find any reference to a PA arty school on Mindanao, just the tactics school for the constabulary run by the PS. Because of the extreme arty shortage, all the school guns on Luzon were regimented and training transferred to the active units.

Mark may have got his percentages off a bit. The 2.95 was a real live 75mm. An old mountain gun, it was also called a 75mm ‘pack’, and often, just a 75mm. Japanese 14th Army records have 37x 75mm and 32x 2.95s captured as of Feb ’41. This suggests a roughly 50/50 split, but the 2.95s needed the higher wooden wheel, because of the trail design, so it wasn’t all that road mobile, and maybe there were just more of them capturable. So perhaps a 65/35 split isn’t unreasonable.

Another witch rears her ugly head in the composition of the Visayan/Mindanao force. I think it’s quite possible that the artillery composition references for 81st and 101st Div (PA) have some double counting going on. It was simply not physically possible for the Corregidor to carry the 16 75mm and 24 3” guns that are cited as allocated to Sharp’s forces, but lost on Dec 17 when she was sunk. Not sure I can even buy into 8x 75s and 12x 3”, especially since she was loaded to the gills with refugees, too.

[ed] would love to hear about them ex-nav 3" things. Maybe, between all the stuff we both got, we can put opening day PI arty to bed with a teddy bear? Ya think?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: JWE

....

[ed] would love to hear about them ex-nav 3" things. Maybe, between all the stuff we both got, we can put opening day PI arty to bed with a teddy bear? Ya think?

Works for me John. I'll dig for all I got and see what I can find. On my way out now so it will be a bit...