Two Questions for the Forum about Allied PT Boats

[pws1225]

Hello all - I'm involved in my first GC PBEM game as the Japanese side. It's Dec 30, 1941 and I have just attempted an invasion of Davao on Mindanao with an amphibious TF consisting of a CL, several DDs, and about a half dozen xAKs. While approaching Davao, air recon showed that two PT boat and MTB TFs were lurking about the area, but I figured that the escorting CL and DDs were sufficient to keep the little buggers at bay. I was wrong! The PTs attacked as my transports were unloading and sank 3-4 transports inflicting significant casualties to the invasion force. My questions are:

1) is there a better way to defend an invasion TF other than embedding warships with the invasion TF, and

2) what are the effective means to attack PT boat TFs? The little buggers are small and fast and surface ships don't appear very effective against them. I tried searching the forums (using 'less precise' search) but with no results.

My allied opponent, Dr. Hal, is invited to join in the discussion as he sees fit.

Thanks in advance - Paul

[nashvillen]

PT boats - the scourge of the seas!

Have a seperate SCTF consisting of 4xDDs with a good Naval commander follow your invasion force. They will engage PT TFs and sink them. Give them a reaction of about 3 hexes. Just be ready to bring another one when this one runs out of ammo and has to go reload!

PTs are very difficult to engage and kill, but you can do it with persistance.

[USSAmerica]

If you have advance notice of PT's in a target hex, I'd recommend detaching the CL and DD's into a SCTF to move in and engage them.  Sweep them clear before moving the transports in.  I think aircraft strafing attacks at 100' are supposed to be effective as well, but I don't have any personal experience with that.  I do know how effective the PT's can be.  My partner and I have used them very effectively to disrupt landings at Darwin in our 2x2 game.  [:)]

[Chickenboy]

Echo USS Mike's recommendations about a CL/DD TF to sweep through the hex first. Maybe have 2 such CL/DD heavy TFs-the little buggers are hard to hit, so they'll need a lot of guns shooting to make such a hit.

I do know how effective this CL/DD sweep can be. My partner and I have used them very effectively in and around Darwin to decimate the Allied PT fleets. [8D]

[SqzMyLemon]

I don't like the little buggers either. Naval search will sometimes damage them resulting in a few days in port to repair where they can be port attacked either by surface ships or air units. I try and provide adequate surface ships as escorts for invasion fleets, but as you learned they can be jumped by the PT's while unloading, especially at night. A few SCTF's of DD's and CL's assigned to follow your invasion TF will often deal with the PT's before they can reach your transports, or at least use up their Op points. I try and deal with PT's in daylight whenever I can as that is when a small counter DD force shines in comparison with trying to sink them at night. They are just so quick and hard to target at night, but in daylight they are very vulnerable. I'm no expert, but I'm learning to deal with them much better and they are more nuisance than actual big time threat.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

PT boats - the scourge of the seas!

Have a seperate SCTF consisting of 4xDDs with a good Naval commander follow your invasion force. They will engage PT TFs and sink them. Give them a reaction of about 3 hexes. Just be ready to bring another one when this one runs out of ammo and has to go reload!

PTs are very difficult to engage and kill, but you can do it with persistance.

Better yet, have the invasion TF follow the SCTF. It does not ensure that the PTs will engage the DDs first, but it seems to increase the odds.

[John 3rd]

Hate PT-Boats! Evil--nassssssssstttty little things!

[findmeifyoucan]

Wow, Daveo Dec 30? I usually have it taken within the first week of the war. I have had no problems dealing with pt boats. Usually I do both though, send in a surface fleeto of cruisers and destroyers into the port first as a bombardment mission and usually find the pt boats try to defend the port or patrol the area with a surface fleet plus I always have cruisers and destroyers mixed in with my invasion fleet. My experience has been that the pt boats usually do not stick around when they see what is stacked with the invasion fleet. If it is a large invasion I will even mix in some battleships. My last game there was an allied cruiser trying to stop the invasion and lasted maybe two salvoe's before it was at the bottom of the ocean not to far from Daveo as it happens. It did stop the first attempt because I only had my amphib fleet set on high risk but after a changed it to "absolute" risk we had our engagement and one cruiser got a hit and the Houston got 4 torpedoes, 9 hits and sitting on the bottom of the ocean! lol. Mind you I did have my battlefleet mixed in with my amphib fleet so one cruiser really had no chance at all.
I have also had just destroyer TF's patroling the area and been quite successful with engagements on PT and MTB boats!!

[crsutton]

If you are the Japanese player and have air superiority then try zeros on naval attack at 100 feet. Otherwise as said above lots of small DD forces sweeping. I think the have done PTs very well in the game. They are a nuisance but will not win the war. I would say the PTs that got in among your transports was a rare event. Usually, the covering force will take care of them. Only real problem is an Allied player who stacks up multiple PT forces at one location can sort of throw things out of whack. We have a HR limiting it to one PT TF per base with up to six PTs. That seems to make a fair balance.

[dr.hal]

As all folks who have played the "big" game know, December '41 is not a fun time to be the allies, so this event I had with Paul was a refreshing change to the repeated hits I was taking from China to Pearl. I believe in the action I sank 4 AKs (Paul is being coy trying to keep the "Fog of War" alive here with the 3-4) loaded with 5K+ troops or so (lots of vehicles too!. Interestingly as a nice aside and a tribute to the game designers was the fact that one of his DDs was struck by one of his own AKs and heavily damaged!). But here are some hints that I used and I told Paul about so I'm not giving the "game away" so to speak. I used some of my very few political points to put very aggressive and talented LCDRs in charge of both the US PTs and British force of MTBs (yes those folks from Hong Kong). I also upped their resistance to flee level from Normal to the next higher level (I forget what it's called). This appeared to help despite the night conditions favoring the Japanese (87% moon light so the engagement happened at 8K yards vice maybe 2-3K which would have helped me!). I lost 5 PT/MBT boats, but I think their sacrifice was worth it. I didn't know Paul was going to land in Davao as Allied recon is not very extensive and I'm using some planes to reposition troops, but I knew something was up... and yes Lady Luck had a lot to do with it, but isn't that always true? Hal

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

If you are the Japanese player and have air superiority then try zeros on naval attack at 100 feet. Otherwise as said above lots of small DD forces sweeping. I think the have done PTs very well in the game. They are a nuisance but will not win the war. I would say the PTs that got in among your transports was a rare event. Usually, the covering force will take care of them. Only real problem is an Allied player who stacks up multiple PT forces at one location can sort of throw things out of whack. We have a HR limiting it to one PT TF per base with up to six PTs. That seems to make a fair balance.

That sounds like a sensible balance, crsutton. How would your HR be able to replicate events such as the large numbers of PTs on patrol off of Samar strait (during Leyte battle), however?

[findmeifyoucan]

That is one thing I have never been able to do? Hit pt's with AC's. Never tried 100 ft elevation though with ftrs. Interesting, might try that when I have ftrs to spare, hee, hee. But, I have been quite successful with my detstroyer patrols so I think I will stick with that.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

That is one thing I have never been able to do? Hit pt's with AC's. Never tried 100 ft elevation though with ftrs. Interesting, might try that when I have ftrs to spare, hee, hee. But, I have been quite successful with my detstroyer patrols so I think I will stick with that.

Tried it, and got lots of hits. Alas, none fatal, so it's hardly worthwhile to damage a plywood PT boat that can be back in action lickity split.

[dr.hal]

We don't have that rule crsutton but I do believe in trying to be "realistic". However those Brits had no place to go (being from Hong Kong and it fell three days earlier) and "reacted" to the Japs, as they were not in the same hex as the US PTs. I'm not trying to play unfair with Paul, who is a great opponent. Hal

[pws1225]

To all - thanks for the information and quick reply. I'll give both the separate SCTF and Zero attacks a try.

To findmeifyoucan - yep, just now getting to Davao. This being my first crack as the Japanese side, I pretty much let the historical first week of turns play themselves out. Unfortunately, I underestimated the amount of time needed to shuffle the necessary manpower, ships, and supply forward to further followup moves. As I have learned, playing the Japanese side in the opening months of the war is akin to a one-armed man trying to juggle a dozen cats. My hat is off to all those who have mastered the art.

To John 3rd - yes, PT boats are very, very nasty little things!

To Dr. Hal - Agreed, there was nothing unfair about your tactics at Davao. Had I used the methods described in this thread to defend the invasion TF, the outcome could have been very different. C'est la guerre.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton

If you are the Japanese player and have air superiority then try zeros on naval attack at 100 feet. Otherwise as said above lots of small DD forces sweeping. I think the have done PTs very well in the game. They are a nuisance but will not win the war. I would say the PTs that got in among your transports was a rare event. Usually, the covering force will take care of them. Only real problem is an Allied player who stacks up multiple PT forces at one location can sort of throw things out of whack. We have a HR limiting it to one PT TF per base with up to six PTs. That seems to make a fair balance.

That sounds like a sensible balance, crsutton. How would your HR be able to replicate events such as the large numbers of PTs on patrol off of Samar strait (during Leyte battle), however?

Probably could not, but I won't fret over it. Problem is multiples of PT TFs can cause a Japanese force to use up a tremendous number of OP points. Not to say that this did not happened sometimes in the real deal but sometimes it creates imbalances that just don't feel right. We set this HR at the start of our game ( a year and a half ago) based on our experiences with PTs in WITP. It is probably not so much an issue in AE but I think it works OK.